History of the Hobbit

I dunno, how long has it been since Odo made his "Thanks Ady - I'll make sure to rearrange my schedule " post?

Have I ever mentioned how much I love that post

Once or twice

...a week

Not that often surely...

The History of the Hobbit thread, do you mind?

Presently, Orwell, presently.....Eldo: I vaguely remember the 'Thanks Addy' post, (in response to system administration I believe), but do you know where it might be found?

It was Odo's extremely belated response to the original "Scheduled maintenance today 12/20/08" thread on the old forum. Our archive is down but it can still be found on Archive.org (at least the first page can).

Link

Oh, yes, yes, quite good. BTW, was that an actual picture of our Ally as avatar? Quite winsome.

Orwell wrote: I'm up to "Medwed" in HotH btw... Fascinating reading!

Medvedev, Medwed, Mesikämmen... get to the 'Gold-elves' slowcoach

Okay, back to history of the hobbit (don't look so shocked!) - I looked it up on amazon and all I can find are hardcover boxed sets that go for nearly $60. Is it worth it? And given the choice, should I spring for HoTH or HoME?

As far as I know The History of The Hobbit is only available in hardcover, but it's a very nice box set. One of my favorite Tolkien book purchases from an aesthetic viewpoint.

As for HOTH vs HOME, it depends on your interests. They have a similar approach, but HOME is about The Silmarillion and LOTR. If you're more interested in those books, I'd go with that. Also, the HOME books are available individually and in paperback, so if you're unsure of just how interested you are by that sort of book, you can start with just one cheap volume and see how you like it.

good advice, that. Thanks. I've already decided from glancing through HoME in the past that it simply sets my teeth on edge to see Aragorn referred to as 'Trotter', so may go for HoTH.

Elthir wrote:

Orwell wrote: I'm up to "Medwed" in HotH btw... Fascinating reading!

Medvedev, Medwed, Mesikämmen... get to the 'Gold-elves' slowcoach

Oh come on now,
let's not be hasty,
I'm savouring this sweet food -
this book so tasty.

What Orwell would reply (if he had the Channelling Gift),

by Wisey Banks

halfwise wrote:good advice, that. Thanks. I've already decided from glancing through HoME in the past that it simply sets my teeth on edge to see Aragorn referred to as 'Trotter', so may go for HoTH.

Oh I only wish it had been "Trotter"
A proper sequel - Halfwise you rotter!

What Orwell thinks (but is too polite to mention),

by Wisey Banks

? ?

The Trotter idea sounded coooool!

At the eaves of Mirkwood, Elthir!

Orwell wrote:At the eaves of Mirkwood, Elthir!

Very good... but watch out for spiders. Unless you mean 'in the book'... but then again, be wary of spiders on books too.

Also, disregard Mr. Rateliff's suggestion about what the name Thranduil means... as it is wrong if not silly... by which I mean it is not silly but it is wrong.

Sorry, but by pointing out a minor error within a book full of great information (even if JDR did not have access to Tolkien's translation, which I know he did not), I might seem more loremastery than I am.

And it is my job to seem so.

I am curious now as to what 'silly' reason he gave for Thranduils name.

Well as I say, I mean it is not silly, which made my phrasing silly. It seems a bit strained to me, but then again I'm not a trained linguist myself, so maybe it's not.

JDR suggests a 'thrand/ (o) thrond' element (Nargothrond), meaning 'fortified cave', and that the '-uil or -duil' part might relate to 'hollow' but more likely 'links to drui, dru 'wood, forest' -- suggesting a possible meaning: '(One who lives in) a (fortified) cave in the woods'.

Tolkien however mused (Words, Phrases And Passages, published after The History of the Hobbit however): Thranduil 'vigorous spring'.

Generally speaking, Tolkien as creator can invent new roots to explain words or names (although not willy-nilly of course). Anyway, scholarship is not always without peril.

I sometimes wonder about some of this linguistic stuff, but I'm in the same position I feel, Elthir. The difference is I'm not going to put my head on the block about it. I'll leave that for those who's job it seems so.

I'm not sure JDR is a trained linguist himself (he might note something about this in his book, but I can't remember if so). I understand why he might try and tackle Thranduil, and nothing wrong with trying obviously, but technically the name doesn't appear in The Hobbit.

But our approaches were radically different. The original draft of Taum's edition, which I've deposited at Marquette, has very little annotation and almost no commentary. Had he lived to finish it, his edition would have been much shorter, presenting a text that incorporated all changes made to the manuscript with only a few brief text notes; the commentary would have been restricted to glosses of names in Tolkien's invented languages, Tolkienian linguistics being Taum's vocation.

JDR (from an interview about his book)

That seems to imply (at least) that it isn't JDR's field, or at least not his main field perhaps. But in any case, for example, when it comes to Elvish nomenclature, in their guide to The Lord of the Rings Hammond and Scull either quote Tolkien himself or members of the editorial linguistic team (Carl Hostetter, Arden Smith and so on).


When JDR explains Nargothrond he refers to both 'A Gateway to Sindarin' (a book written by the linguist who invented the Neo-elvish for the films) and The War of the Jewels page 414 -- but these references merely explain Nargothrond, and do not actually include (that I found anyway) any reference to a variant *thrand however...

... but then JDR immediately continues with: 'The thrand/(o)thrond element' as if thrand is an established variant [at the moment I'm not sure there is a Sindarin word *thrond 'cave, excavation' really, but rather the -th- here arises in the compound othrond, from Sindarin ost + rond (Narog-ost-rond)]. And if *thrand is an attested (or arguable) variant, in my opinion an example or a brief argument would have gone a long way -- otherwise a 'mere' vowel difference can make things quite distinct of course.

Nor is it explained why -duil should necessarily be linked with drui, dru 'wood, forest', noting that the first contains no -r- and the second would not explain final -l. In Etymologies one can find Tolkien's 'CF. duil river in Duilwen' under root DUI- and not that this proved ultimately correct, but this souce was available to JDR as well as linguists posting on the web, some of whom incorporated this word as a possibility.

In Appendix D the word for Spring (meaning the season, not an outflow of water for example) in Quenya is tuile and in Sindarin ethuil -- and the latter would seem to be a combination of words or elements derived from the bases ET- 'out, forth' and also TUY- 'spring, sprout'. These bases are noted in Etymologies, along with a Noldorin word *tuile (TUY-) with long e.

JDR is clearly aware that 'Noldorin' is the antecedent (external) version of Sindarin, and would not have to be a trained linguist to be aware that in Sindarin compounds the sound -t- can be softened to -d- (Celebrindal, for example)

In 2004 Florian Dombach posted to 'Elfling' (a Tolkien language discussion list with searchable archives) the suggestion that the final element in Thranduil might be 'spring' based on evidence in Etymologies; although the guess at the initial element didn't make much sense (admittedly to Florian, who could only come up with something that meant 'Hard Spring'). Others have guessed at a meaning 'across, beyond the water' based on THAR- and duil in Etymologies.


OK no one got the whole thing correct compared to Tolkien's statement in Words, Phrases and Passages (considering fuller disclosure: there Tolkien refers to th(a)randuil 'vigorous spring' as a name, but doesn't specifically attribute it to the father of Legolas), but JDR's suggestions appear to be his own and distinct from earlier theories (any that I'm aware of at least).

So if linguistics is not his thing there were others he could have relied upon to maybe get it wrong

Well that didn't come out right; but still, even as a person not himself who is linguistical (wow that really didn't come out right, but notice the hint concering gender there), still I expect some sort of explanation if variant sounds are present, thus, that's why JDR's suggestion looks a bit strained to me.

Once I've got to the King's Halls, I'll probably know what you're talking about.

{{{Note to self: (1) golden hair; and now (2) ( ) Thranduil - lingustic stuff in relation to...}}}

Well here the matter is set apart by JDR himself.

(iv)
The Name 'Thranduil'

The Elvenking is never named within The Hobbit, like the Mayor of Lake Town (who never does acquire a name), he is always simply referrred to by title throughout. Not until The Lord of the Rings is he given a name, Thranduil, and made father of the elven member of the the Fellowship, Legolas Greenleaf. Even in The Lord of the Rings most of what we learn about him comes from Appendix B: 'The Tale of Years', he never actually appears in the main story. His name is not easily explicated but seems to be in early Sindarin (that is Gnomish/Noldorin, later rationalized as a dialectal form), and to contain the same element as the place-name Nargothrond:* Narog + othrond, 'fortified cave by the river Narog' [Salo, p. 386; HME XI. 414]. The thrand/(o)thrond element, meaning fortified cave (ost + rond), fits very well with the character as described in The Hobbit, where the chief thing we know about him is that he's a king dwelling in a cave; the -uil or -duil suffix might relate to dûl (hollow), but more likely links to drui, drû ('wood, forest') [Gnomish Lexicon, page 31]. If so, a possible gloss would be '(One who lives in) a (fortified) cave in the woods.'

*(note 44): The name 'Nargothrond' itself arises for the first time in 'The Lay of The Children of Hurin', which predated The Hobbit by at least five years, see HME III. 36 & 55.

JD Rateliff, The History of The Hobbit, In The Halls Of The Elvenking

That's the whole section of part four here, The Name Thranduil.

As I noted, unless I missed something neither of the first two sources mentioned by JDR note any variant *othrand with the same or similar meaning as othrond, and JDR seems to accept this as a variation with no explanation or example (if there is an example somewhere). Nor does the Gnomish Lexicon page 31 note any variant with -l with respect to the words for wood [drui, drû]. And again -duil contains no -r- as well.

And the same page of this lexicon (Gnomish Lexicon page 31) notes:

duil power of flight. also (aj.) 1) having power of flight. 2) fledged. [pencil.]
duil swallow [erased (or smudged?) pencil.]
*{duil & duilir Spring.} [Deleted in ink. CF. II 338 s. v. Duilin.]

So I checked the Appendix to HME II which further notes.

GL has duilin(g) 'swallow', with duil, duilir 'Spring', but these last were struck through, and in another part of the book appear tuil, tuilir 'Spring' (see I. 269).

And on page 71 of the Gnomish Lexicon appears the word tuil 'spring'

So the words for 'Spring' actually hail from very early conceptions of the language that would ultimately become Sindarin.