History of the Hobbit

I deny everything.

(((although the Loremaster did buy some of my eel oil the other day, I even gave a discount for bulk buying ))))

You see it's all explained, thank you Mrs Figg.

And by the way, just to add, for no particular reason: I'm having eel for a great party soon, almost 100 guests so far; so I recently purchased a lot of eel oil.

Mrs Figg wrote: I deny everything.

So let me get this straight, Mrs Figg.

You deny that you never revealed the contents of an encrypted message regarding slipperiness to Elthir,
AND you deny that Elthir ever asked you to deny ever having written to him about any suggested slipperiness.

Is that correct? Do yo deny it?

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you {{{for the most part}}} then it's beginning to look like there are foul, nefarious spells being brewed in the Tower of Lore.....

Oh, these are dark times!

Elthir wrote:
C) Yet in a pretty late account, Tolkien appears to imagine black hair (morna) among the Noldor -- in The Shibboleth of Feanor, dated 1968 or later -- for example, there Finwe has 'black' hair (note 19). Or concerning Urundil (note 61): 'His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Noldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery red in it.'

.

In that case, might "golden" possibly refer to this colour?



Incidentally, a horse of this colour might be called "sorrel".....or not....depending on several factors.

Got me thinking what colour a grey horse would be if you drew a picture of it - or posted a photo?


{{{And a to the encryption business, I'm confused David, so I think from now on I'll just post and hope.}}}

Is that correct? Do yo deny it?

Mrs Figg might have meant that, as she usually or often enough denies 'everything' in general practice, therefore she denies that which I asked her to deny, confirming my tale.

In that case, might "golden" possibly refer to this colour?

In general it might, I suppose, to someone. But are you suggesting that that's what JDR meant when he suggested that the Noldor may have originally been 'golden' haired?

There is clearly more to 'colour' than I realized!

You guys have got me thinking about the Five senses now (I'm not sure why ).

Sight - colour, yes.... how we percieve it, individually, one hobbit's grey might be another hobbit's silver as red is to deep red {{{or silver is to red in certain contexts, David! }}};

Aural: what does 'grey' sound like, if it is thought of as some kind of sound-wave?

Touch: does 'grey' feel different to 'yellow' (for example), cooler perhaps, and grainy?

Smell: I think 'grey' would be a bit smokey; or maybe even at times 'chill-wet' on a Winter pavement;

and Taste: bitter, like woodash, or neutral on a given day, while 'red' could be very tasty, very tasty indeed - sweet even {{{don't you think so, Mrs Figg? }}}

I prefer the taste of purple. purple feels like velvet and it sounds like a cat purring.

Oh as regards 'golden hair', it appears Tolkien was quite indefinite in his thinking about hair colour, and his indefiitenesss varied and changed and morphed during the ongoing creative journey he was on.

As to "Thranduill", Rateliff's theories were given as just being that, he does not appear to make any absolute judgments on the issue. His ideas seem feasible enough - if a little clutchy-at-straws - and, yes, he may be guessing up the wrong tree. What do you suggest "Thranduill" means, Elthir? Once I know that, I'll tell you if I think you're likely to be right - or not!

Now that I'm saying this, it also occurs to me that Tolkien might have been a Lore Master in some regards, but I think his greatest gift was 'in the writing' where his imagination drove things, and (apparent) discrepancies could occur. Eg: maybe he thought Elves (generally) were dark haired, but in the mood (poetry?) of the moment while 'creating' a scene something like "dark haired" maybe just didn't 'feel' right at the time of putting pen to paper.* These things are where "imaginaton" and "history" diverge - thank Eru! I mean, if you wanrt to read history pull our Gibbon or something.


* I have a mental picture of golden hair shown up in torchlight. Black hair would have seemed an inadequate colour in the context. Tolkien has a sure hand (and vision) in these things - to hell with what fits his 'history' (or not), Elthir. 'Poetry' is more important in storytelling than 'facts' are, and always!

Orwell wrote: {{{or silver is to red in certain contexts, David! }}};

{{{ }}}

{{{Phew! Peppermint? I smell a rat! A peppermint scented rat! }}}

{{{ }}}

[quote="Elthir"]

In that case, might "golden" possibly refer to this colour?

In general it might, I suppose, to someone. But are you suggesting that that's what JDR meant when he suggested that the Noldor may have originally been 'golden' haired?

I don't know JDR well enough to have an opinion, but I might suggest for discussion that when Tolkien refers to any elves as "golden" he may be referring to something darker than the flaxen hair of PJ's Legolas. There are many times when he evokes an image of autumn, sometimes quite directly, when he's describing elves. The symbolism that they are a people whose time is passing is clear.

The colours you've mentioned so far, black, dark brown, copper, and golden, all fit well into an autumn landscape. I don't think that's coincidence. I agree with Orwell that I think JRRT often leaves details intentionally open for poetic reasons, but if you need me to guess an exact colour of golden elven hair, I'd have to say the golden brown of fallen oak leaves.

Orwell wrote:Oh as regards 'golden hair', it appears Tolkien was quite indefinite in his thinking about hair colour, and his indefiitenesss varied and changed and morphed during the ongoing creative journey he was on.

OK but John Rateliff's commentary intends to explain the golden hair of the Elvenking because he thinks it needs explaining.

(...) This still does not explain why the Elvenking, who is clearly neither a Light-elf (Vanyar) nor a Deep-elf (Noldor) but a Sea-elf (a Sindar, one of the Teleri of Middle-earth) should be golden-haired. However there is already precedent for golden-haired Sindar in Tolkien's earlier writings.'

He's trying to explain the golden hair of the Elvenking because the Elvenking is not a Vanya (the Vanyar being mostly golden-haired is generally accepted among Tolkien fans, despite Appendix F), nor a Noldo (if JDR is correct that when The Hobbit was written Tolkien actually imagined the Noldor as golden-haired, put forth as a potential idea), but a Teler.

If he merely explained that the Elvenking's hair is a poetic choice then this discussion would be very different.

As to "Thranduill", Rateliff's theories were given as just being that, he does not appear to make any absolute judgments on the issue. His ideas seem feasible enough - if a little clutchy-at-straws - and, yes, he may be guessing up the wrong tree. What do you suggest "Thranduill" means, Elthir? Once I know that, I'll tell you if I think you're likely to be right - or not!

Well I already know what Thranduil means according to Tolkien

As I say I don't mind anyone guessing, but for example, JDR goes to the Gnomish Lexicon and chooses drui but never mentions that there are two words duil on the very same page -- and granted one was crossed out but the reference there leads one to tuil, which still works.

Now that I'm saying this, it also occurs to me that Tolkien might have been a Lore Master in some regards, but I think his greatest gift was 'in the writing' where his imagination drove things, and (apparent) discrepancies could occur. Eg: maybe he thought Elves (generally) were dark haired, but in the mood (poetry?) of the moment while 'creating' a scene something like "dark haired" maybe just didn't 'feel' right at the time of putting pen to paper.* These things are where "imaginaton" and "history" diverge - thank Eru! I mean, if you wanrt to read history pull our Gibbon or something.

OK, but the main issue is JDR's example three: again, even if we grant JDR's argument to be correct, what's the role of the revision to Appendix F in supporting the argument that the Noldor were originally golden haired?

I don't know JDR well enough to have an opinion,...

Well that suggestion seems strained to me, keeping in mind that JDR's argument includes a contrast between 'originally' and a later scenario. The 'dark' hair of the Noldor as described in Appendix F (draft text, and published text too, as the Noldor are Eldar) is still raised as part of his argument for an original scenario... but in the later scenario the Noldor are dark-haired.

... but I might suggest for discussion that when Tolkien refers to any elves as "golden" he may be referring to something darker than the flaxen hair of PJ's Legolas. There are many times when he evokes an image of autumn, sometimes quite directly, when he's describing elves. The symbolism that they are a people whose time is passing is clear.

The colours you've mentioned so far, black, dark brown, copper, and golden, all fit well into an autumn landscape. I don't think that's coincidence. I agree with Orwell that I think JRRT often leaves details intentionally open for poetic reasons, but if you need me to guess an exact colour of golden elven hair, I'd have to say the golden brown of fallen oak leaves.

I don't need you to guess but you are certainly welcome to

The name Glorfindel means golden-haired, gold-tressed, in Quenya Laurefindel. Tolkien notes that laure refers to 'golden colour of sunshine or golden flowers' and that the application of gold to this stem [LAW- LAWAR-] 'was poetic and referred to colour primarily (as especially of laburnum) not to material (malta)'. (PE 17)

With respect to the name of the golden haired Elves, at one point Tolkien wrote (Quendi And Eldar):

Vanyar thus comes from an adjectival derivative *wanja from the stem WAN. Its primary sense seems to have been very similar to English (modern) use of 'fair' with reference to hair and complexion; though its actual development was the reverse of the English: it meant 'pale, light coloured, not brown or dark', and its implication of beauty was secondary.

And Tolkien had earlier (same section) referred to the hair of the Minyar (the Vanyar) as nearly in all members 'yellow or deep golden', and the Noldor 'who loved gold' are noted as probably giving the name Vanyar to the Minyar.

Celeborn and Galadriel echo the Two Trees in my opinion, Silver and Gold.

When I talk of oakleaf gold I'm thinking of something like this:

"Glorfindel means golden-haired" but hopefully not as literally as this:




"laure refers to 'golden colour of sunshine or golden flowers' " but hopefully not as literally as this:

Is the first pic King Thandruill? If so --- I'm Gay I'm Gay I'm oh so Gay!~ and proud!

I think 'golden' refers to hair - that bit I'm willing to commit to, Elthir.

The second picture is just silly. The Woodland King never looked lke that!

David H wrote:When I talk of oakleaf gold I'm thinking of something like this:

OK, and of course I'm not suggesting that Tolkien's descriptions can only be imagined as some colour that one finds unrealistic due to an overly literal approach to those descriptions.

They do however, provide imaginative guidelines, considering words like 'pale, light coloured, not brown or dark' and the reference to golden-yellow things like the flower named. And 'not dark' is the problem, back to The History of The Hobbit.

Yet they [the Noldor] were not in any way like to the gnomes of learned theory, or of literary and popular fancy. They belonged to a race high and beautiful, the Elder Children of the world, who now are gone. Tall they were, fair-skinned and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod; and their voices...'

Appendix F, draft version


'They [the Eldar] were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod...'

Appendix F, revised, published version [Finrod ultimately changed to Finarfin in later editions]

OK and is it not your suggestion that the dark reference is consistent within JDR's argument because he might think 'golden' is golden brown enough to merit the word dark?

In other words, possibly according to JDR: Tolkien describes the Noldor twice as 'golden' then a third time as dark of hair, but this is consistent in JDR's head because he images golden as some sort of golden-brown that can also be described as dark.

But the very quote he raises strongly implies that the Noldorin or Eldarin locks were dark, but not the 'golden' haired Elves.

Am I the only one here to think you have a 'colour' fetish, Elthir? Or maybe a 'fixation"---- or 'fixative'? - which might seem 'mordant' really.

Orwell wrote: I think 'golden' refers to hair - that bit I'm willing to commit to, Elthir.

You think what 'golden' reference refers to hair? One of JDR's references?

And does that mean you are not willing to give an opinion on JDR's third example as supporting (seemingly why he raised it) his originally golden-haired Noldor theory?

Elthir wrote:

Orwell wrote: I think 'golden' refers to hair - that bit I'm willing to commit to, Elthir.

You think what 'golden' reference refers to hair? One of JDR's references?

And does that mean you are not willing to give an opinion on JDR's third example as supporting (seemingly why he raised it) his originally golden-haired Noldor theory?

Um... can I get back to you on that?


{{{Note to self: try harder to concentrate better, Orwell! }}}

Am I the only one here to think you have a 'colour' fetish, Elthir?

I don't know. It would not make me blue if you thought so, whether I do or not.

But as it happens I purchased a nicely coloured fetish some years ago: fetish 1. An object that is believed to have magical or spiritual powers, especially such an object associated with animistic or shamanistic religious practices.

Um... can I get back to you on that?

Sure. Hopefully before my hair turns grey or greyer... but sure

By the way that girl (pictured first in David's post above) seems to have grey eyes.

Elthir wrote:

OK and is it not your suggestion that the dark reference is consistent within JDR's argument because he might think 'golden' is golden brown enough to merit the word dark?

In other words, possibly according to JDR: Tolkien describes the Noldor twice as 'golden' then a third time as dark of hair, but this is consistent in JDR's head because he images golden as some sort of golden-brown that can also be described as dark.

But the very quote he raises strongly implies that the Noldorin or Eldarin locks were dark, but not the 'golden' haired Elves.

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I know nothing about JDR's argument or what's "in his head" except as you've presented it here for the purpose of challenging it.

As you've presented his argument, it appears that the Appendix F quotation weakens rather than strengthens the case for JRRT intending elven people in general to be 'golden' (whatever that's agreed to mean), at least in hair colour.

I'm just pointing out that the words golden, fair etc. are all relative to a norm. From the evidence you've provided and from my own memory, I'm suggesting that the norm as envisioned by JRRT might be something like this:

DARK
With exceptions being COPPER


and GOLDEN

Probably not THIS: U

So my point is that all these terms are relative and need to be used in a clear context. For example,3 is definitely golden when compared to 1 and 2, but if 4 is considered golden, and it is by many, that 3 would have to be called dark. Until you and JDR establish what it is you're arguing for, it's more difficult to evaluate the argument.