History of the Hobbit

I feel like I've read that recently. But maybe I'm remembering it from last time I read HotH. Anyway, not far to go. The dwarves have been captured now! Though there is now about fifty pages of notes and stuff before I read the actual Elvin King Hall bit! Oh well! I'm sure I'll get to it - eventually.

OK but didn't you just get to it by reading my post? or, that is, I brought it all here and you seem to have read it

If you are planning to comment on this, that is (as it seems), when you get to it.

I like things to play out in good order, Elthir. Once I've thread through and past the Elvin King then I'll feel confident (maybe) to at least think more about all this. Don't hurry me! {{{big fat bully! }}}

Well you can take years to comment if you want Orwell, or never comment of course... I just assumed you were waiting to get to the exact wording, so I provided it; for you or for anyone.

Again no one can fault JDR for publishing an attempt at explaining Thranduil before Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages was published, but beyond that I think we can comment on his attempt.

Elthir wrote:but beyond that I think we can comment on his attempt.

More than that, I think we have an obligation to comment. Anybody who has the temerity to dissect JRR Tolkien in a published work almost demands it!

Well I would think JDR himself expects commentary on his book, both positive and negative.

The big picture here is quite positive in general, from my perspective. I say the same thing about the popular Atlas of Middle-Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad: I generally recommend it, and think it is full of good, well researched information.

That doesn't mean one need agree with everything in the Atlas however.

I'm sure everybody who publishes on Tolkien expects commentary (unless his last name is Tolkien, of course). That's what we have loremasters for, afterall!

That's what we have loremasters for, afterall!- David

I must agree on this point. For those of us whose brains are a little buckie befuddled having many of these finer details analysed and discussed brings ever greater depth to subsequent rereadings of a book that just keeps giving.
I salute the Lore-Masters! (drunkenly)

I've come across the first reference in HotH to the "woodland king" and I've taken a note of page and page lines for future reference. The funny thing is, I can't remember what Elthirs point is, so I see I'll have to find all the "golden hair" references in HotH, then read Elthir's posts here again! After research and analytical thought on it all, I guess I'll be able to decide my view regards Elthir's Lore Master-Think! Very time consuming, what! I guess if I can destroy Elthir's credibility once and for all, it'll be worth it though.

{{{quote: I guess if I can destroy Elthir's credibility once and for all, it'll be worth it though.
Just a word on caution Orwell. I believe I've noticed our Lore Master's point strategically shifting when confronted with irrefutable evidence concerning grey horses. They're slippery, these Lore Masters! }}}

{{{Mmmmm.... I'll consider your dark hints carefully, Dave. }}}

chris63 wrote:

Somehow the trees look like they married owls and these are their off spring. I very much love the colors, the feeling.

I think you've captured it, Leelee! And so good to have you back...

Well, to present the matter again: JDR writes that there is some evidence that Tolkien originally conceived of the Noldor as golden-haired.

OK, what's the evidence? JDR presents three things.

A) in the genealogies meant to accompany the Earliest Annals of Beleriand the Noldor are referred to as Kuluqendi or 'Golden-elves'

True. I'm not sure that necessarily means the Noldor had golden hair, but at least I understand why the example is raised.

B) the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion includes 'the Golden' as one of their many descriptors.

True again. And again does this necessarily mean the Noldor had golden hair at this point? In the same description (as the context concerns a variety of Elves) we have 'White' connected to the Vanyar and 'Blue' connected to the Teleri. In other words the greater context of the description JDR is pointing to doesn't appear to be about hair (one has to check the 1937 Silmarillion to check the context here). But even so, I still get why he raises this. However...


C) Christopher Tolkien notes that the passage in Appendix F of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings describing the Eldar as dark haired, 'save in the golden house of Finrod', was written as a description of the Noldor before being applied to the Eldar as a whole'.

True again, but as I posted last year (or however long ago it was): 'The last example confuses me a bit: how does the revision to the passage in Appendix F help argue that the Noldor might have been originally golden haired?'

I'm not sure I necessarily disagree with JDR, I just want someone to explain this last bit of evidence to me... maybe I'm reading it wrong. It seems to me it's rather evidence for dark hair among the Noldor in general, not golden hair.

Elthir wrote:True again. And again does this necessarily mean the Noldor had golden hair at this point? In the same description (as the context concerns a variety of Elves) we have 'White' connected to the Vanyar and 'Blue' connected to the Teleri. In other words the context of the description JDR is pointing to doesn't appear to be about hair (one has to check the 1937 Silmarillion to check the context here). But even so, I still get why he raises this. However...

You're probably right, but a part of me wishes that White and Blue were hair colors and that we had Elves walking around Beleriand with crazy anime hair.

(...) concerning grey horses. They're slippery, these Lore Masters!

If you mean me Sir: regarding my tactility (or some more suitable word), I wash regularly. I can be slippery given the right conditions: for example the great Sharrasi has bestowed gifts of oil now and then, which would be impolite to disregard.

And just to add something on topic: the slipperiest Elves are arguably the blue haired Elves of Animendor, who employ a type of animal fat to keep their locks shiny and smooth. Catching them by the hair is nearly impossible at least.

Elthir wrote:

(...) concerning grey horses. They're slippery, these Lore Masters!

If you mean me Sir: regarding my tactility (or some more suitable word), I wash regularly. I can be slippery given the right conditions: for example the great Sharrasi has bestowed gifts of oil now and then, which would be impolite to disregard.

And just to add something on topic: the slipperiest Elves are arguably the blue haired Elves of Animendor, who employ a type of animal fat to keep their locks shiny and smooth. Catching them by the hair is nearly impossible at least.

Then perhaps oleaginous is the word?

{{{Moderator: Moderator: Moderator: Requesting encryption check on this channel. Experiencing security issues. Please advise!}}}

{{{There is definitely something amiss, David. Do you notice how it seems mainly to be the newer citizens here who can read encrypted messages not intended for them! (Mrs Figg is one particularly recalcitrant and witchy exception! ) How can this be? I suspect a design fault by our Admin, who frankly - at least in maintaining the integrity of our Forumshiran Ecryption Service - is not as competent as one would like him to be! How Elthir does it is anyone's guess. }}}

Elthir - is the 'woodland king" Noldor, do you think?

Orwell wrote:Elthir - is the 'woodland king" Noldor, do you think?

Well JDR does not think so

' (...) This still does not explain why the Elvenking, who is clearly neither a Light-elf (Vanyar) nor a Deep-elf (Noldor) but a Sea-elf (a Sindar, one of the Teleri of Middle-earth) should be golden-haired. However there is already precedent for golden-haired Sindar in Tolkien's earlier writings.'

JDR, The History Of The Hobbit

Mr. Rateliff then notes an early description of a golden haired Luthien from the A-text of the Lay of Leithian (somewhat odd given the connection to Edith Tolkien, but anyway it's attested).

This commentary about the Noldor basically seems to be part of an attempt to show that the later description Tolkien fans are aware of (that golden hair seems to be a Vanyarin trait outside of noted exceptions) might not have been in place yet, and thus we have a golden haired Elvenking in The Hobbit. I don't disagree that this might be true. I just think:

A) the first two examples to show that the Noldor were originally golden haired are a bit thin in my opinion.

A1) there is also no mention of the Noldorin connection to golden light (early: The Book of Lost Tales) or gold (later: Quendi And Eldar) which might explain the first two examples as referring to something other than hair.

B12) there is no larger context available in JDR's book with respect to 'the Golden' description. This could refer to hair, but I think the fuller context raises more doubt for the idea (admittedly subjective I guess). And granted one can check this older version of Quenta Silmarillion but not all readers can, or will.

B12 is really a very minor quibble given that one need not quote every reference obviously.

7) I still don't get how JDR's third example helps that case really.

And with respect to the citation I just citationed: it might be a typo in the book but Sindar is plural (and Quenya actually, just to note it) thus JDR's 'a Sindar' is a bit awkward here. Unlike my 'citationed' which is clearly unawkward.


As for the encryption matter: I had no idea about any mentioned slipperiness until Mrs Figg told me. Or that's my slippery story anyway. Plus she told me some were wondering about this. Yes, that seems believable.

This might makes things easier: for the sake of argument let's imagine that (it's certain that) Tolkien did think the Noldor were originally golden haired.

If so, wouldn't the draft text of this description in Appendix F, and the ultimate version, be rather evidence of JRRT notably altering that idea?

Elthir wrote:

C) Christopher Tolkien notes that the passage in Appendix F of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings describing the Eldar as dark haired, 'save in the golden house of Finrod', was written as a description of the Noldor before being applied to the Eldar as a whole'.

True again, but as I posted last year (or however long ago it was): 'The last example confuses me a bit: how does the revision to the passage in Appendix F help argue that the Noldor might have been originally golden haired?'

I'm not sure I necessarily disagree with JDR, I just want someone to explain this last bit of evidence to me... maybe I'm reading it wrong. It seems to me it's rather evidence for dark hair among the Noldor in general, not golden hair.

That's how I read it as well. But I'd like to point out that "dark haired" may mean something different among a fair people, just as "dark complection" means different things among different people. If, for example all elven hair is in shades of red/golden/flaxen/white, a dark haired elf could still be reddish blonde. And his or her horse could be whitish grey

Elthir wrote:

As for the encryption matter: I had no idea about any mentioned slipperiness until Mrs Figg told me. Or that's my slippery story anyway. Plus she told me some were wondering about this. Yes, that seems believable.

Hmmmmmm.............

OK, I suppose that is just barely plausible. I'll have to have a talk with Mrs Figg about all this.

{{{ Do you see what I mean about Lore Masters, Orwell? Slippery like eels they are! Unctuous in fact. Which is why I'm inclined to believe the Mrs Figg excuse......for now. }}}

David H wrote: That's how I read it as well.

Huzzah!

But I'd like to point out...

Uh oh...

... that "dark haired" may mean something different among a fair people, just as "dark complection" means different things among different people. If, for example all elven hair is in shades of red/golden/flaxen/white, a dark haired elf could still be reddish blonde.

Ok but according to relatively new text on hair from Tolkien's linguistic jottings: to sum them up briefly, Tolkien wrote (his words are italicized, see Parma Eldalamberon 17)...

A) 'The Noldor were generally hróva or morna' [these Elvish words are noted] 'morna black of hair: hróva 'dark, dark brown' -- although in another entry JRRT seemed to think absolute black was not the case (same source): 'The predominant colour of Noldorin hair was very dark brown (no Elf had absolute black hair: morna)'

C) Yet in a pretty late account, Tolkien appears to imagine black hair (morna) among the Noldor -- in The Shibboleth of Feanor, dated 1968 or later -- for example, there Finwe has 'black' hair (note 19). Or concerning Urundil (note 61): 'His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Noldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery red in it.'

And his or her horse could be whitish grey

Or black even if it's grey. Ah no grey horse 'emoticon' -- or a black one would have been nice here actually.

By the way I told Mrs Figg to deny ever having written to me about any of this suggested slipperiness.