History of the Hobbit

That seems a valid point to me David.
Unless we can define somehow what the 'norms' Tolkien was basing his use of words like 'dark' and 'golden' on there is no way to determine whose interpretation of those would be correct and extrapolate back out the likely hair colour of types of elves.

I'm reading through this and am thinking," gotta love the Tolkien fandom!"
But don't mind me, I'm just an observer. Please continue.

David H wrote: No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I know nothing about JDR's argument or what's "in his head" except as you've presented it here for the purpose of challenging it.

Well I don't expect anyone but JDR to certainly know what's in his head. I'm looking for possible explanations, and I thought you were trying to suggest one from within a more general arena. Something like: who knows what JDR was thinking, but some golden hair could be said to be 'dark' relatively speaking (seemingly implying maybe that's what he's thinking).

As you've presented his argument, it appears that the Appendix F quotation weakens rather than strengthens the case for JRRT intending elven people in general to be 'golden' (whatever that's agreed to mean), at least in hair colour

In my opinion Appendix F draws a distinction between dark haired Elves and golden haired Elves, whatever colour one imagines 'golden' to be. In other words, the Noldor/Eldar are dark of hair, save in the house of the golden haired Noldor (Finarfin's house), where they are not dark of hair.

Until you and JDR establish what it is you're arguing for, it's more difficult to evaluate the argument.

He is arguing that he has found three pieces of evidence in possible support of the Noldor being originally golden haired.

If I have an argument about that, it's that the first two examples need not have anything to do with hair -- and there is no mention of the Noldorin connection to golden light, and the Noldorin love of gold as well, both of which might at least serve as an arguable alternative to JDR's suggestion that 'golden' refers to hair.

And further that his third example speaks to the Noldor being dark-haired as distinct from being golden-haired; again, no matter what colour hair one imagines that Tolkien means by golden. Thus I'm perplexed as to why he would raise this example as evidence for golden haired Noldor.


And why 'probably not' the colour of Jackson's Legolas?

[quote="Elthir"]

David H wrote:
And why 'probably not' the colour of Jackson's Legolas?

I'm basing that on your quotes about black or nearly black hair as a norm. In that context the PJ Legolas' hair would be striking for it's lack of colour, and one would expect descriptions like pale, light, even possibly silver. "Golden" would seem to imply a brightness and excess of colour that is missing here, though not necessarily if the normal colour were lighter.

Besides, I'm rather fond of my new theory about autumn colours at the moment, into which Legolas just doesn't really fit.

[quote="Elthir"]

Um... can I get back to you on that?

Sure. Hopefully before my hair turns grey or greyer... but sure

Shouldn't that be 'turns whiter"?

This post is not to remind Orwell that he has had plenty of time to respond, given the fact that I have no way of knowing that. But as posting on the colour of things in the various forums I participate in seems thin right now, and I have some free time at the moment to ramble on...

Pettytyrant101 wrote: That seems a valid point to me David. Unless we can define somehow what the 'norms' Tolkien was basing his use of words like 'dark' and 'golden' on there is no way to determine whose interpretation of those would be correct and extrapolate back out the likely hair colour of types of elves.

But I think all we need to know is that Tolkien does not use 'dark' to refer to golden haired Elves.

Let's say we had a house of the Vanyar with darker hair than the rest of this clan, relatively speaking. If JRRT was engaging with these relative colour comparisons in some description, he might refer to this house as darker-haired, and possibly even dark-haired if the context made it clear that this is but a relative distinction.

But in any case I tend to doubt that he would refer to this house as dark-haired in general, or out of that context. The reader would have no way of knowing this was a relative description only, and would not conjure up the image that Tolkien really intended, despite that Tolkien would be at fault.

The very quote JDR raises contains the contrast: the Eldar were dark-haired except for the golden house of Finarfin, who are not dark-haired. Here the reference is clearly enough about hair, which is not disputed by Christopher Tolkien nor JDR, nor anyone that I've ever read.

JDR's theory is to help show that the later 'rules' might not have been in place. He begins with the suggestion that the Noldor were originally golden haired, with 'originally' meant to compare to a later scenario. The distinction between dark haired and golden haired is easily enough understood, and the argument makes no attempt to explain a 'relatively dark golden' is being considered.


Again, if Tolkien described the Vanyar as dark haired I doubt anyone is going to think or wonder that he really means relatively dark golden -- and in fact, as Appendix F implies that the Vanyar are dark haired, Christopher Tolkien objected to this as misleading according to JRRT's later notions. Christopher Tolkien is aware of the 'private' descriptions (now published), including the text about the name Vanyar and its connection to the meaning 'pale, light coloured, not brown or dark'.

Some editions even now include a footnote (not from Tolkien) that the statement in Appendix F refers to the Noldor only, not the Eldar. I won't digress about that now, but I will note that Tolkien himself altered the name Finrod for the second edition in the 1960s, but did not alter the meaning of the statement however -- which still refers to the Eldar, and thus would seemingly include the 'Vanyar' if not named.

See what happens- I make an innocent observation and I get FACTS thrown at me, with caveats! Lore Masters! {{I think you are right, there is more than distinction of shade between Tolkiens use of dark and golden}}

Sorry Petty. I'm really avoiding some weeding.

Of course, again I want to be clear that this 'revival' does not intend to pressure Orwell in any measure, despite that, given that about a week has gone by, I could have flown to JDR's house by now and asked him what he meant.

Although he probably has a phone or a computer or something, but personal visits can still be nice.

Think yourself lucky Elthir he went off and read War of the Worlds months ago with the express purpose of giving my adaptation of it a kicking and he hasnt even managed that yet- you'd think he had a family life and crowded work life or something. Its Aussie laziness is what it is I tell you, lounging on a beach somewhere eating shrimps off a barbie whilst being served weak canned beer by a group of scantly clad women all called Shelia

Well that explains it, thanks Petty.

Plus there is the difference in time zones too. I should have considered that.

Plus now its winter or something strange in OZ I think.

Are they not just going into spring in Ozhobbitstan? I hope not mind you Orwell is bad enough when his sap isn't rising.

perish the thought.

Princess Julia, how wonderful to 'hear your beautiful voice."

and yours too LeeLee.

Shrimps and the ladies -- and work, of course! Lazy? Tush you guys - tush! Yep, busy - and dramas at work with a certain boss who constantly questions me about the work I'm doing as she doesn't seem to understand I get paid to work. Eru, I dislke time serving lazy people. But she's been found out and will be sent off to somewhere else very soon, and I'll be running things. The first I'll be doing is put a ban on arrant laziness! Hooray! I've also had a few issues (and worries) with my daughter who is bi-polar, but things seem to b a'settling (until the next crisis!). Anyway,all this is keeping me away from giving Petty's play a damn good belting and Elthir's Lorebottom a damn thorough slapping, and Mrs FIgg some damn slow hand loving (including cream, pinenuts and a generous drizzle of chocolate sauce! Oowee! )! Time! Time! But sometimes there's just not enough!

Family, work, she-mortals named Sheila... all must be set aside for the following. But as I'm a nice guy I'll try to make things easier. Please tick the desired box below (only one box per customer).

What explains JDR raising Appendix F here as evidence of formerly golden-haired Noldor?

A [] nothing explains it

B [] a glitch in the Matrix maybe, but more probably nothing (see A)

C [] a girl named Sheila distracting the author at a crucial moment

D [] none of the above, but one of the two below

E [] grey

F [] some easy explanation that will make Elthir look a fool, especially after going on about it for so long now


You (anyone) may also choose to comment using your own words. Please do not use any words that appear in this post however, as these are my words (except for any conjunctions).

I am still goggling about you admitting to being a guy. Its like finding out Petty is really English.

Petty is really english


(oh, I'm gonna feel this one)

Everybody, take cover!!!

NORC! How dare you insult Mrs Figg like that by insituating I'm English!!
And youre already due a valuable lesson in being burnt alive over your Hobbit book comment Norc- now I'll need to think of something horrible to do with your ashes too. More work! Work work!.

Norc, did you ever find those caves your grandmother hid in? Now might be a good time.

RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!!!!

yeah.. those caves may be a good idea now....

Mrs Figg wrote:I am still goggling about you admitting to being a guy.

I'm not sure why this merits a 'shocked emoticon'... but ok I wasn't trying to conceal this earlier... but yes I am male.

After my unbehorsing however. I have no clear memory of everything before my behorsing, it should be noted.