History of the Hobbit

Except for when someone switches the hoover on.

According to Mr Rateliff, it was most likely an ent that was seen in The Shire. I knew it!

Orwell wrote:According to Mr Rateliff, it was most likely an ent that was seen in The Shire. I knew it!

Well, as I couldn't find the word 'Ent' in the index, can you point out where this argument is exactly (I don't remember, if I even read this section that is).

I'm interested to see just what JDR is considering when he apparently states that it was 'most likely' an Ent that was seen in the Shire.

Oooh I smell a Lore Master fight brewing!

Its a pity you still havent finished painting the Tower of Lore grey, cos they could have scrapped it out in the palantir room, they could have done the Gandalf twirl.

Elthir, pages 143-144 in my hardback copy. Under Giants (Chapter 4). I think now Tolkien did put it there to suggest an ent --- and maybe even hint (to romantics like me) that it was an entwife!

Mrs Figg, with all respect (and true love,of course!): what the fuck are you talking about?

Oh yes, Elthir, if you really want to be a (respected) Lore Master, you should at least remember if you've read all the important books cover to cover - like HotH and that kind of thing -- nor just flip through the pages so you can make uncontextualized arguments to make you sound more Wise than Eldo! (And don't expect me to defend this last statement, as it was an unfair and intemperate slur and definitely not a reasoned response! )

sorry did I interupt something serious and manly?

Probably --- if Elthir is even a Man, of course?

{{Mrs Figg, I've never actually worked out if Elthir is a Man or a Woman? Or an Androgyne? I hope He/She's an Androgyne --- Forumshire's First! Think of it! }}}

Orwell wrote:Elthir, pages 143-144 in my hardback copy. Under Giants (Chapter 4). I think now Tolkien did put it there to suggest an ent --- and maybe even hint (to romantics like me) that it was an entwife!

Yes I found it under 'Treebeard' finally.

For this question I prefer the considerations of the thread here actually, including consideration of the tallness of Ents and Elm trees, and the length of strides; and especially the more detailed dating with respect to the external picture. Of course JDR does not pretend to present his full case here, concerning this particular question.

I note in any case that JDR does not say he thinks this description is meant to suggest an Ent, but rather...

'Nevertheless, Nan may have been in the back of Tolkien's mind when he created the ents some twenty years later: for 'ent' simply meant 'giant' in Old English, and it seems plain that the giant seen by Sam's cousin Hal up beyond the North Moors was an ent, described as being as 'big as an elm tree, and walking'.

JDR, The History of The Hobbit, somewhere in the book, look under Treebeard not Ent in the index

He writes that it seems plain that the giant was an Ent.


Also, a respected loremaster should never remember everything. I forget why.

So why not a Entwife, hmmm?

But definitely an Ent, at least!

Orwell wrote:So why not a Entwife, hmmm?

I don't know why JDR writes Ent instead of Entwife... or why he thinks Ents are as tall as Elm trees for that matter.

Instinct and commonsense makes him say it, Elthir - instinct and commonsense (the Elm tree bit, I mean)... And I concede from the outset that it's not a Lore Master kind of thing, no.

Well it seems sensible to me to check the tallness of Ents and the length of their strides -- both of which JRR Tolkien takes the time to describe -- and compare that to an Elm, and the stride described.

Especially if one intends to say something in a published account.

Well, as we only (apparently )know the average stride of an elm, and not the actual stride of the elm seen in The Shire, I think we should give Rateliff the benefit of the doubt, don't you think?

Orwell wrote:Well, as we only (apparently ) know the average stride of an elm, and not the actual stride of the elm seen in The Shire, I think we should give Rateliff the benefit of the doubt, don't you think?

Well the description includes that something 'bigger' than a tree was seen, or 'as big as an Elm tree' was seen walking 'seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch'

As I noted elsewhere, an English Elm averages between 50 and close to 100 feet tall! Treebeard is 14 feet tall 'at least', so again, even if he is 16 feet tall that is significantly smaller to my mind (if large to us and a Hobbit especially), and he is seemingly taller than other Ents Tolkien describes later: 'as tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more...'

In Marquette MSS 4/2/19 Tolkien made various calculations of the length and speed of an ent-stride, concluding: 'an Ent would take nearly nine hours to do 70,000 strides and presumably in that time would go 70,000 yards at least, probably 4 ft a stride.' Hammond and Scull, Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings

As I said before, a 4 foot stride is yards away from a 7 yard stride! So we seem to have a notable disparity in height (at least arguably), and a disparity in stride length.

A young elm tree taking small careful steps so as not to step on bunnies accidentally? Kind hearted, p'raps? Not of the Old Man Willow type!

Had you even considered that possibility, Elthir?

No! I bet you hadn't!

A young elm tree taking small careful steps so as not to step on bunnies accidentally? Kind hearted, p'raps? Not of the Old Man Willow type! Had you even considered that possibility, Elthir?

You want me to consider that a young Elm tree who bestrode bunnies in the Shire with 'seven yards to a stride' was taking small, careful steps?

Ooooh gorgeous!

I like that altough I am not sure exactly what it is meant to be depicting.

My cousin Ballbag Bigguns, I think - from the Lesser Banks branch of the family - who went off for an adventure and no one's seen him since, Mr Tyrant.

By the looks on those trees faces I think I can guess Odo- after his nuts and no mistake!

I suspect you're right, Petty.

In terms of funny posts its been a slow couple of days here in Forumshire

700 days to be exact

I'm not sure "a couple" of days can ever be described (logically) as "700", Ally.

I'm up to "Medwed" in HotH btw... Fascinating reading!