Re: Doctor Who [10]

by **Amarië** Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:02 pm

But! New episodes will mean new retro posters! And nothing is yet as bad as the Amy Pond era, so there is still hope!

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:03 pm

When's the next Who episode? I am trying to muster the will to care. - Amarie

I am surprised by your last statement there. Bar two episodes - robin hood and the forest one- I thought the past series was the best single series in NuWho. Especially in terms of having stand alone episodes whilst maintaining a proper character development for both leads across an entire run.
Capaldi has been all I hoped for when he got the job- I love everything from the way he expresses so much in his face to the way he runs (which is sort of reminiscent but with a new twist of the 2nd Doctors run). And his crabbit sense of humour is of course right up my street.
Clara's character has also been given a complete overhaul by the new dynamic of a new lead, the relationship became much more real and complex and ended with them reaching a position of mutual understanding and platonic love and rediscovering the sheer joy of being in each others presence off having adventures.

I also strongly approve (even though it lead to a miss for me with the forest episode) of both getting in up and coming British directors (including some women and given them proper meaty stuff like the two part finale to do) and the bringing in of several new writers. Even though this was always going to be tricky to do all in one series.

Regards Moffat and old age, and age being seen as a negative. That was something 11 had issues with- but even then Moffat only voiced throughRiver something which has been self evident about the Doctor for a very long time, back into classic era- he doesn't like endings.
And the more he has to endure and see, the less he likes them.
But it hasn't actually come up in 12's run save through Clara in Deep Breath- and in that episode her resistance to his older appearance and her initial disturbance of it is resolved by her full acceptance of it and him- a positive message about aging.
And I don't think the old Clara thing counts as it was originally her departing story, but then she decided to stay another series and Moffat had to write on the happy ending.
I for one am glad she is staying- I have thoroughly enjoyed the dynamic between Clara and 12 and I look forward to more of it. It will also make her the longest serving companion in NuWho.

As to when the show is back- Autumn most likely given the shooting schedule (which has just started on the new series, or is just about too)- but there is nothing official yet and probably wont be for months.

by **Amarië** Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:14 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:When's the next Who episode? I am trying to muster the will to care. - Amarie

I am surprised by your last statement there. Bar two episodes - robin hood and the forest one- I thought the past series was the best single series in NuWho.
*giggle* You don't say?!

Now that you mention Robin Hood, I think it might have worked better if it had been more of a dream-like thing. The forest at least gave poor Danny some much needed personality, or the idea that he could be an interesting guy if given the chance. He was terribly bland to the very end, sadly.

Especially in terms of having stand alone episodes whilst maintaining a proper character development for both leads across an entire run.
Capaldi has been all I hoped for when he got the job- I love everything from the way he expresses so much in his face to the way he runs (which is sort of reminiscent but with a new twist of the 2nd Doctors run). And his crabbit sense of humour is of course right up my street.
I like when the old doctors pop up in him, it's a delight to see.

Clara's character has also been given a complete overhaul by the new dynamic of a new lead, the relationship became much more real and complex and ended with them reaching a position of mutual understanding and platonic love and rediscovering the sheer joy of being in each others presence off having adventures. I do approve of them fully going with the Clara who's addicted to thrill and traveling.

I also strongly approve (even though it lead to a miss for me with the forest episode) of both getting in up and coming British directors (including some women and given them proper meaty stuff like the two part finale to do) and the bringing in of several new writers. Even though this was always going to be tricky to do all in one series. Yeah, this is a good thing.

Regards Moffat and old age, and age being seen as a negative. That was something 11 had issues with- but even then Moffat only voiced throughRiver something which has been self evident about the Doctor for a very long time, back into classic era- he doesn't like endings.
And the more he has to endure and see, the less he likes them.
But it hasn't actually come up in 12's run save through Clara in Deep Breath- and in that episode her resistance to his older appearance and her initial disturbance of it is resolved by her full acceptance of it and him- a positive message about aging. I disagree. It's more like "Oh thank God he's not really an old man like humans would be, it's just his face! Phew!"
And I don't think the old Clara thing counts... It's a rough summary of how the show deals with old age/wrinkles. It counts.
...as it was originally her departing story, but then she decided to stay another series and Moffat had to write on the happy ending.
It would have been a good farewell. It had grace, with a slight hint of rushed "happily ever after" ending. People would have wanted to know what she really did. Cue fan fics and spin offs.
I for one am glad she is staying- I have thoroughly enjoyed the dynamic between Clara and 12 and I look forward to more of it. It will also make her the longest serving companion in NuWho.
It's not that I dislike them. I keep hoping for more. Not sure what 'more' is though. There's something lacking... I thought maybe Danny would join them and add something. Or Clara leaving, followed by a new companion or a few solo missions. I dunno.

As to when the show is back- Autumn most likely given the shooting schedule (which has just started on the new series, or is just about too)- but there is nothing official yet and probably wont be for months. I'll just try to manage in the mean time.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:31 am

Now that you mention Robin Hood, I think it might have worked better if it had been more of a dream-like thing. The forest at least gave poor Danny some much needed personality,....He was terribly bland to the very end, sadly.
- Amarie

Possibly yes. I think it was just a rather typical Gatiss Who episode- period set and somehow not quite right despite nice ideas. For some reason he rarely gets it quiet right (probably the dead one from 9's run and Crimson Horror are the only two he does get it right for me).

As to Danny I think he was meant to be bland- thats what Clara found reassuring about him. He is sort of the anti-Doctor- he doesn't want any more excitement in his life, he doesn't want adventure, or travel- he wants to settle down and lead a good quiet life and that appeal to Clara when she feels like she is losing her control over the Doctor part of her life.. In the xmas episode Clara even jokes that with Danny she always has to use her imagination.

'I like when the old doctors pop up in him, it's a delight to see.'

My favourite has to be when he is debating with himself in the cabin on the Oriet Express and the 4th Doctor pops into the conversation with "I know what a mummy is" with 4 having of course encountered mummies of a sort in Pyramids of Mars.

'I disagree. It's more like "Oh thank God he's not really an old man like humans would be, it's just his face!'

I dont agree with a that- when a Time lord looks older he is older by their own standard. The 1st Doctor was older in his actions than 12, he got tired easily for example. So its not just his face, he is by Time Lord standards older than he was, considerably so. The same man yes, but an older version of him.

'It would have been a good farewell. It had grace'

Yes and that grace was present in the original ending without the added happy ending, so I dont see how you can accuse Moffat of anti-ageism whilst at the same time praising the grace of his portrayal of old Clara.

Reminds me of the Moffat is sexist argument which tends to present two or three characters, claim thats proof, and conveniently ignore all the other female characters he has written, like Madame Pompadour, Sally Sparrow ect who dont fit the narrative.

'I thought maybe Danny would join them and add something. Or Clara leaving, followed by a new companion or a few solo missions. I dunno.'

I thought Danny would join them too, but it would have been too similar to the Ponds I think, so I reckon the choice not to was the right one. This series was about the relationship with Clara and the Doctor and vice versa but I do think next series we might see another dynamic added, hopefully without any romantic angle at all.
Personally I'd like to see someone from either a different time period than modern day, or from another planet.

by **Amarië** Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:31 am

Yes and that grace was present in the original ending without the added happy ending, so I dont see how you can accuse Moffat of anti-ageism whilst at the same time praising the grace of his portrayal of old Clara.

Then you should have your beer goggles checked, they might need a refill. Cool

If you see what I said above, it is the happy not-goodbye ending that is the issue. It all makes more sense now that I know it was tacked on at the end, as a whole I was reminded of the repeated "He's old! He's old!" from 12's fist episode and though I was meant to.

It is all getting gradually better though, if Moff and crew are learning that you don't have to repeat something ten times for it to register. If "he's old" hadn't been repeated so many times as it had, the would have been more focus on Clara being worried she had lost her friend rather than making the actual AGING the angsty issue.

As with Danny, I don't think he's mean to be dull. I think he is, unsuccessfully, meant to come off as interesting, strong, kind and protective. Adventurous when needed, but not a danger seeker.
(There had to be some point to his superman jump over the alien-thingy and chasing a tiger?) While the Doctor is likely to throw Clara to the lions just to see what she'll do.
Clara needs someone to tell her she's special, and Danny could do that easily.
Um, babbling here. Not quite awake yet. What I meant to say was that they don't quite get their message through, it's there but it's fussy and other not so important things steal focus.

This series is still FAR better than the Amy era. FAR!

by malickfan Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:29 pm

Amarië wrote:

This series is still FAR better than the Amy era. FAR!

Not least because I'm actually watching it...

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:11 pm

There had to be some point to his superman jump over the alien-thingy and chasing a tiger?- Amarie

I thought it demonstrated what he is capable of- but has given up. He was soldier, he was trained, he did travel, he had adventure, he helped a lot of folk out (20 wells!) but he gave it up, he quit- which is the contrast to both the Doctor and it turns out Clara- they are addicted to the life style, they cant give it up.
I think it plays into the underlying theme about how the Doctor and Clara are both addicted to what they do and to each other. Danny is the contrast to it.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:45 pm

Various takes of 10's final line- I found Tennants comments when watching the takes back interesting, I think he understood the character better than those around him-

by Forest Shepherd Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:12 pm

Interesting. I like Tennant's observation that he shouldn't show too much emotion in the line. As it was it worked quite well, so that was a good call. I like that they took a collaborative approach to it, but then nothing else would be justified considering that this was Tennant's last scene as the Doctor and if he couldn't have a say over how he ends his time as the Doctor it would be really lame.
Sometimes I feel like you're fishing for something Petty. But then aren't we all? Razz

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:28 pm

Not fishing- just thought it interesting as Tennant basically voices concern over the delivery that many Who fans who dislike the line think is the problem with the line itself- let alone the delivery.
I'm glad Tennant persuaded them to go for the less emotional, less angsty version, but the comment that the other takes are "out of character"! is the main complaint against the line itself. Its just not something the Doctor would say when faced with regen.

I think this is the reason Moffat sort of allowed for it to have another subconscious meaning in Day of the Doctor- that 10 has a vague subconscious knowledge that once he regens he is going to Trenzalore to die in battle.

That works for me as it lets me view the line in a context other than whiny, emo 10 angst.

by **Amarië** Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:02 pm

Well that certainly proved it could have been a lot worse! Dear oh dear...

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:38 pm

Not least because I'm actually watching it...- Malick

Well if you dont watch the 5/6/7 run there are some epiosdes I would recommend from it that i think are well worth the time.

From series 5 I like Vampire so Venice- not outstanding but a lot of fun, Rory's first adventure as part of the crew, and a great soundtrack in that one from Murray Gold.

Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone- a good solid two parter with some very nice concepts in it. But only caveat is it plays into the overall arc which if you are not watching all of them may not be of interest.

Amy's Choice, mainly for the character of the Dream Lord and the performance of him from Toby Jones who is excellent in it- classic cheap budget episode but good solid performances lift it above the norm for me.

Vincent and the Doctor is a favourite of many, but not one of mine- I think its a decent episode with very good performances, but like everything written by Richard Curtis post Blackadder I find the emotion manipulative in it.

I love the two part finale- its such exuberant fun- but you really need to have seen the relevant feeder stuff for it to get the most from it.

Series 6 is trickier because its so arc heavy and stand alones are rare.

But I would recommend The Doctor's Wife- Neil Gaimans writing debut and very good indeed.

I really like A Good Man Goes to War- but its an arc central story.

The Girl Who waited- just a superb performance from Karen Gillan in this one, great support from the rest- another budget episode that makes good use of being so and an excellent script.

The God Complex- a shifting, seemingly endless 1970's British hotel, with a minotaur and where everyone has a room with their greatest fear in it waiting for them- what more could want from Who?

Series 7, this one was sort of all stand alone's but I would recommend-

Asylum of the Daleks- bit of a split on this one- but I think its a lot of fun.

Same goes for Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.

Bells of St John- modern Clara and evil wifi!

The Rings of Akenaten- highly controversial marmite episode- I personally love it and think it was one of the more experimental push the boat out episodes of NuWho.

Crimson Horror- Mark Gatiss doing what he loves most- setting Doctor Who in a Victorian period of freaks and weirdness. Some startling imagery in this one. In my view his best Who episode. Has two excellent guest performances form real mother and daughter duo Diana Rigg and Rachel Striling playing mother and daughter in a very twisted family.

This list doesnt include the xmas episodes, and lots I think are excellent but are arc heavy.

by **Amarië** Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:25 pm

Yeeeeeees! Come ~~argue about Amy~~ play with us forever and ever and ever! cheers

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:39 pm

{{{I am rather enjoying this mischievous streak of yours lately Amarie! Laughing

}}}}

by malickfan Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:06 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Not least because I'm actually watching it...- Malick

etc...

We've probably had this discussion before:

I watched and loved Series 5 when it came out (esp Vincent and The Doctor and the Angels 2 parter), there wasn't a dud ep in the series as far as I can remember, though I found the series finale kinda overblown and complicated, as I've said before I never really grew very attached to Smith's doctor-it's a good performance I just found him a bit gimmicky, prattling on about Timey Wimey and wearing stupid hats, Smith is very good at being a old man in a young man's body, but it took them a while to figure that out, to be perfectly frank at first he came across as a bit of a idiot with too many gimmicks and ticks it was almost as if Moffat was compensating for Smith being younger and Tennant's Doc being so 'human' 'Hey look at me I'm a ALIEN We-he!', even after getting back into the series with the last few eps of series 7 I'm still not overly fond of Smith, I guess everyone has 'their' doctor.

Having grown up with RTD's take on the series, the shift to hard sci-fi and a more outwardly Alien doctor was rather hard to accept, in retrospect I probably didn't give Smith a fair chance-I only watched a couple of eps of Series 6, before losing interest (I HATED a Good man goes to war...), the storylines became rather convoluted and frankly boring i.m.o, but even serious 'Whovians' I know (one of whom conisders Smith the best doctor of all 13) found Series 6+7 a struggle, I should probably watch 6 and 7a at some point, but at the moment I really can't muster the enthusiasm.

On the plus side, I finally finished and enjoyed Pertwee's last season (esp The Time Warrior), apart from Planet of the Spiders-rather weak, and dragged out storyline i.m.o, the shody effects and pacing issues weren't really too much of an issue, I just found it a rather low key and generic send off for the Third Doctor (that isn't a bad thing per se, it just didn't really grab me, I've read about the original plans for Delgrado to return, that would have been interesting...), it was nice to see Captain Yates make a brief return, and I loved the way the actual Regen was handled-low key and rather touching (The Third Doctor actually dies dosen't he?), much better than the melodramtic light shows we have in new Who.

And now on to Tom Baker...

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:53 pm

From what Ive read and interviews Ive seen/heard over the years i dont think Moffat wrote Smith quirky.
The usual method for a new Doctor is they write 'generic Doctor', and then they see what the actor brings to it, then the writers pick up on that and play to those performances.

So the manner in which Smith moves, the way he expresses himself with all the arm movements ect seem to come form the performance rather than the writers. Initially at least.

For me I thought with 11 they kept the underlying development of the character going throughout in a varied and interesting way, which meant unlike with Tennants Doctor he didn't seem to only consist by the end of a series of quirks and catchphrases.
The deeper layers to the character brought about by the story- 11 is the Doctor who finally got a family again, the first time since he left Susan hundreds of years and 10 regens ago, he is the Doctor who knows he is going to die being the last regen- gave it for me much more meat than remained on 10's bones by the end. There were no new or interesting character development surprises left with 10 long before his end with the sole exception of Water son Mars.

I don't know what you have and haven't seen but I would think you would like his performance more in the ones were he is lower key- Girl who waited and God Complex come to mind- both very low on the quirk front.

The main reason I like A God Man Goes to War is Smith performance. There are several I think superb scenes with him in that one- in-particular the entire 'Captain Runaway' conversation, his realisation they wanted a Time Lord to use as a weapon because they had seen him in action and his reaction to the aftermath of the loss of the fight and the conversation with River about what the word 'Doctor' is coming to mean.
I really like both the performances in those scenes and the writing.
Karen Gillian performance too displaying the distress of Amy at the loss of her child is painfully good too. I honestly believe a part of the response in some quarters to that being to much to do to Amy is down to how well she gets across Amy's horror and shock and outright pain in that moment.

'Having grown up with RTD's take on the series, the shift to hard sci-fi and a more outwardly Alien doctor was rather hard to accept'

I can understand that- a great deal of my dislike of the RTD era is that I started on classic Who, with the very end of 3 being my earliest memories- and then I mainly remember Betsy!
4 was my Doctor- he was in the role my entire early childhood I was 4 when he started and I was 11 when he left.

And by the time you get to Logopolis you are dealing with ideas about pure mathematics creating reality through ordered thoughts and considering the fate of the universe through the act of entropy.

So going from classic to RTD was like - ok it looks like Doctor Who, a lot of is seems about right, but why is it set in Eastenders?

Regards series 6 and 7- it was a struggle to watch at the time I would say more so than now.
One thing I have noticed on Who forums recently is people reconsidering their view of series 6 in particular when they can watch it back to back.
The way it was broadcast- with a six month break in the middle after Good Man goes to War made it more disjointed than it need be, and even waiting week to week I think harms the overall series because of how arced that series is.
And I have found this myself on rewatching.

The closest to it I can think of is War Games, 2nd Doctor, which was a series long single story- series 6 isn't quite that but its closer to that than any other - actually maybe more like Trial of a Timelord in how interlinked the overall thing is but whilst retaining several separate stories.

I agree about Planet of the Spiders. 3 got a better introduction than he did an exit- although the actual moment is really well played. Dignified and poignant, and watch and weep 10- thats a final line Nod

The body always dies thats what triggers the regen. But if something just as fatal then happens again to the body before the regen has finished you are dead.
But its triggered by the onset of death- which is why 10 moped about for so long cause the radiation took a while to actually kill him.

I wonder what you will make of 4 in light of your views on 11. 4 being the Doctor he was most often compared to- not in mannerisms but in being alien. A similarity which probably plays a large part in my enjoyment of Smith's performance. 9 and 10 were too human for me, too bloke on the street. The Doctor should be an alien because he is one.
Its a feature of 12 I am also hugely enjoying, he is clearly not human.

by **Amarië** Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:58 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

{{{I am rather enjoying this mischievous streak of yours lately Amarie! }}}}

{{{Who, me?

Doctor Who [10] - Page 4 Blafre2_zps337735d5

And whaddayamean 'lately'? Razz

}}}

by malickfan Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:30 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:From what Ive read and interviews Ive seen/heard over the years i dont think Moffat wrote Smith quirky.
The usual method for a new Doctor is they write 'generic Doctor', and then they see what the actor brings to it, then the writers pick up on that and play to those performances I'll blame Smith then .

So the manner in which Smith moves, the way he expresses himself with all the arm movements ect seem to come form the performance rather than the writers. Initially at least.

For me I thought with 11 they kept the underlying development of the character going throughout in a varied and interesting way, which meant unlike with Tennants Doctor he didn't seem to only consist by the end of a series of quirks and catchphrasesThat is a fair point, Tennant was arguably a little static in terms of character development, when he did act quirky it felt kinda constrained by the writing, with Smith it felt, initally at least the pendulum swung too far the other way .
The deeper layers to the character brought about by the story- 11 is the Doctor who finally got a family again, the first time since he left Susan hundreds of years and 10 regens ago (Again that is a fair point, and I did like the 'family unit' he had with Rory and Amy *Points out *Mcgann reunites with Susan in several audios, finds out he has a Great Grand Son), he is the Doctor who knows he is going to die being the last regenOnly in his last season, for the last Doctor he is galavanting around like a mad man with little fear in Series 5, I did like the idea of him dying in a blaze of Glory on Trenzalore, but being the last of 13 came out of knowhere after NOTD - gave it for me much more meat than remained on 10's bones by the end. There were no new or interesting character development surprises left with 10 long before his end with the sole exception of Water son MarsI'm really glad RTD left a possible gap for Big Finish here... (Tennant's Doctor lives, what, 6 years in total?).

I don't know what you have and haven't seen but I would think you would like his performance more in the ones were he is lower key- Girl who waited and God Complex come to mind- both very low on the quirk front.

The main reason I like A God Man Goes to War is Smith performanceI did like his performance in than ep, but I found the storyline overblown, cheesy and boring, haven't watched it since. There are several I think superb scenes with him in that one- in-particular the entire 'Captain Runaway' conversation, his realisation they wanted a Time Lord to use as a weapon because they had seen him in action and his reaction to the aftermath of the loss of the fight and the conversation with River about what the word 'Doctor' is coming to mean.
I really like both the performances in those scenes and the writing.
Karen Gillian performance too displaying the distress of Amy at the loss of her child is painfully good too. I honestly believe a part of the response in some quarters to that being to much to do to Amy is down to how well she gets across Amy's horror and shock and outright pain in that moment.

'Having grown up with RTD's take on the series, the shift to hard sci-fi and a more outwardly Alien doctor was rather hard to accept'

I can understand that- a great deal of my dislike of the RTD era is that I started on classic Who, with the very end of 3 being my earliest memories- and then I mainly remember Betsy! The who-mobile was better, incidentally, what was up with the car chas ein Planet of the Spiders? Talk about obvious padding...
4 was my Doctor- he was in the role my entire early childhood I was 4 when he started and I was 11 when he leftTennat was 'my doctor' growing up, and I still think he had better storylines by and large than Smith, but looking back at it, I do have issues with the writing of the Doctor (not forgetting Rose...).

And by the time you get to Logopolis you are dealing with ideas about pure mathematics creating reality through ordered thoughts and considering the fate of the universe through the act of entropy.

So going from classic to RTD was like - ok it looks like Doctor Who, a lot of is seems about right, but why is it set in Eastenders? I can see why you'd think that...

Regards series 6 and 7- it was a struggle to watch at the time I would say more so than now.
One thing I have noticed on Who forums recently is people reconsidering their view of series 6 in particular when they can watch it back to back.
The way it was broadcast- with a six month break in the middle after Good Man goes to War made it more disjointed than it need be, and even waiting week to week I think harms the overall series because of how arced that series is.
And I have found this myself on rewatching.

The closest to it I can think of is War Games, 2nd Doctor, which was a series long single story- series 6 isn't quite that but its closer to that than any other - actually maybe more like Trial of a Timelord in how interlinked the overall thing is but whilst retaining several separate stories.

I agree about Planet of the Spiders. 3 got a better introduction than he did an exit- although the actual moment is really well played. Dignified and poignant, and watch and weep 10- thats a final line

The body always dies thats what triggers the regen. But if something just as fatal then happens again to the body before the regen has finished you are dead.
But its triggered by the onset of death- which is why 10 moped about for so long cause the radiation took a while to actually kill him.

I wonder what you will make of 4 in light of your views on 11. 4 being the Doctor he was most often compared to- not in mannerisms but in being alien That's precisely the point, It's not the 'Alien' that bothers me, it's the quirks of how Smith plays it-Hartnell and Capaldi are both very Alien in the sense of being somewhat detached and arrogant, rather than quirky in their manner of speech and body language, I prefer my doctors ruder and reserved (Mcgann being an exception-I love his wild eyed crazy romantic man child take on things in the audios). A similarity which probably plays a large part in my enjoyment of Smith's performance. 9 and 10 were too human for me, too bloke on the streetYeah I think I'd agree with that, Eccleston always seemed slighty uncomfortable in the role to me, though if the rumoured production troubles were true I can't blame him. The Doctor should be an alien because he is one.I'm familiar enough with Baker from interviews and random clips to judge his Doctor, I think I'm going to like him
Its a feature of 12 I am also hugely enjoying, he is clearly not human .

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:01 pm

I prefer my doctors ruder and reserved - Malick

You should enjoy 6 and 7 then when you get there. Probably not the stories in 6 but the Doctor (you need to go to BF though to get the completion of his intended character development) and probably not too much from 7 in his first series, but in his second- which is a favourite of mine.

'Only in his last season...being the last of 13 came out of knowhere after NOTD'

Actually that it is his last regen is there throughout, there are hints dropped from 11's start that you pick up on rewatches. Similar to how there are little things in the performance of Alex Kingston that hint at who she is in relation to Amy because she was the only member of the cast who knew because only her character knew.
There are a few times it is stated that he cant regenerate again but always in slightly ambiguous ways.
In the Girl Who waited he tells Rory that the plaque there will kill him and no regen. In lets kill Hitler the interface tells him regeneration is not available. And there are a few more examples of it scattered about all the series. And the subject of death has hung over the stories of 11.
Id say series 5 is about him trying to forget, trying to just stop all the angst, put it all behind himself, and be young in this youngest body yet, and try to forget.
In Day thats what the Moment describes him as. 10 is the man who regrets and 11 is the man who forgets.
But it doesn't work of course.
In series 6 his own actions come back to haunt him as a trap is set for him leading to his death at the Lake by people so desperate to kill him out of fear of what he will do in the future, and even if that fails he still dies on Trenzalore which is the arc of series 7.
12 on the other hand is the Doctor who doesn't need the veil any more as Vastra describes it. He has a whole new set of regens, a new long term goal in finding a way to safely bring back Gallifrey without triggering the war again. But hope. And is not pretending any more to be likeable or pretending to be more human to be accepted any more. And now he has come to terms with what he is at heart- just someone who flow off to see everything he could, because its wonderous, and the wonder is worth preserving.
I very much like the Time War baggage being gone. It completely frees up the character again.

'I found the storyline overblown, cheesy and boring, haven't watched it since.'

I suppose how invested you are in the characters come into play a lot here. I like the premise, and I like a lot of the characters, the soldier girl, the first intro of Vastra and Strax.
The scifi concept of using a child conceived in the time vortex to accelerate their genetics to Time Lord and then brainwash them into a weapon to kill the Doctor appealed to me. I thought it made for good character drama.
And the bay flesh both caught me off guard and was absolutely gut wrenching at the same time, in large part because I didn't see it coming at all. Even though its obvious in hindsight- that I think is good writing.

'Talk about obvious padding...'

There is a lot of padding in classic Who because of the structure- every story, every twenty five minutes had to have a cliffhanger. This meant the actual story being told gets set up at the start then quite often a contrived cliff hanger takes up the last bit, which means the next bit of story goes at the start of the next bit, and there isn't quite enough story now for the first episode, so a car chase, extending corridor run sequence, pointless dialogue filler crops up in the middle quite often.

'I still think he had better storylines by and large than Smith,'

That I just cant agree with- hand waving time lords, jesus 10 rising up to smite down the Master on the prayers of humanity ect
When I rewatch RTD era there is nothing more to see than when I first watched it- its all there to get on the surface except for the deliberately obscure so you could never guess them anyway stuff like Bad Wolf.
When I rewatch Moffat era it often takes two or three watches before I feel I have connected all the dots, realised all the themes, spotted all the clues.
Often rewatching an episode casts a whole new light on events. Rings of Akenaten is a great example- the end seems wrong, the leaf destroying the god doesn't sit right, there seems something missing from the logic of it. Until you find out the Doctor took the leaf with him into his own time stream. In rings he says he will give the old god all his stories, and thats exactly what it got, not just all Claras fractured through time but all his lifes too and all her mothers moments imagined by Clara that never were- and suddenly the ending is seen in a totally different light.

by Mrs Figg Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:13 pm

Amarië wrote:When's the next Who episode? I am trying to muster the will to care. I'm disappointed that Clara didn't leave. I actually thought, dumb as I am, that we were getting a dignified goodbye with old!Clara having had a good and long life. But I forgot that being old is the worst crime you can commit in Moffats Whoniverse and must be undone (Clara), left to commit suicide (Amy) or proven to be not suffering from *actual* disgusting human old age (12).

'Oh you are wrong cause 11 got ~~ridiculously~~ brilliantly old! So Moff loves old geezers.'
11 got really old and wrinkly so we'd pity him.

I think I am about as disillusioned as Petty is delusional.

I agree with you 100% Moffat cant bear old people, Moffat thinks they are mutants which are far scarier than Daleks and need exterminating. Rolling Eyes

by Mrs Figg Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:20 pm

Capaldis episodes are defo better than Smiths but lack the charm and excitement of Tennants.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:46 pm

Moffat thinks they are mutants which are far scarier than Daleks and need exterminating. - Figg

Moffat 9 era- gas mask episode- old Doctor- played very respectfully, heroic, gets saved at the end and his all round excellent chap.

10- Blink- Sally's mate. Goes back in time, gets married, has a family, grandchildren is very happy. No hint of anything wrong with her getting old.
Same episode the copper who gets zapped back and she then goes to his bedside- again hugely dignified portrayal. Very likeable character.

Time of Angels- the top soldier/priest- honourable noble, no mention of the fact he is older.

Xmas Carol- main character is old, story his about his redemption, but nothing to do with being young again save the Dickens notion of youth being reawoken through remembering innocence.

Madame Cavarian- a mature woman whose age is never mentioned let alone made any issue of.

Day of the Doctor- the War Doctor is old. Enough said.

Time of the Doctor- 11 gets old but still leading the fight, still giving hope till is his last. Still saving Clara, one last time.

And Alex Kingstons no spring chicken- he cast as the romantic interest for the Doctor a mature time lord/human.

Then cast the oldest actor as the Doctor since Hartnell with Capaldi.

Yup Moffat sure is ageist.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:51 am

Capaldi interview-

by Mrs Figg Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:24 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Moffat thinks they are mutants which are far scarier than Daleks and need exterminating. - Figg

Moffat 9 era- gas mask episode- old Doctor- played very respectfully, heroic, gets saved at the end and his all round excellent chap.

10- Blink- Sally's mate. Goes back in time, gets married, has a family, grandchildren is very happy. No hint of anything wrong with her getting old.
Same episode the copper who gets zapped back and she then goes to his bedside- again hugely dignified portrayal. Very likeable character.

Time of Angels- the top soldier/priest- honourable noble, no mention of the fact he is older.

Xmas Carol- main character is old, story his about his redemption, but nothing to do with being young again save the Dickens notion of youth being reawoken through remembering innocence.

Madame Cavarian- a mature woman whose age is never mentioned let alone made any issue of.

Day of the Doctor- the War Doctor is old. Enough said.

Time of the Doctor- 11 gets old but still leading the fight, still giving hope till is his last. Still saving Clara, one last time.

And Alex Kingstons no spring chicken- he cast as the romantic interest for the Doctor a mature time lord/human.

Then cast the oldest actor as the Doctor since Hartnell with Capaldi.

Yup Moffat sure is ageist.

funny 90% of those you mentioned are male. the females get to be discarded for their younger versions.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:15 pm

Its not 90%- in the examples I gave its 6 male to 3 female, and 2 of the male examples are the Doctor being old.

But if you want to talk just about the female characters Moffat has given us Amy and Rory- their happy ending is centered on the idea they grew old together- in the Girl Who Waited with old Amy thats exactly what Rory says to her - "I don't care you got old. I care we didn't grow old together."

Moffat in fact rather likes the notion of people living long and full happy lives- 11 does and old Clara in the xmas episode has had a good life, there is nothing undignified about how she is presented.
The same is true for Sally Sparrows friend- her aging, becoming a grandmother ect has no hint of disgust or anything like it.

River is an action packed, adventurous, love interest and is considerably more mature than such a role is normally cast (Alex Kingston is 51), especially against the youngest actor to ever play the Doctor.

And even if you look at the cast of the xmas episode Moffat included a more mature woman in that too when he needn't have (Maureen Beattie who is 62). Same in Kill the Moon (Hermoine Norris, 47).
And Michelle Gomez is 48 and she got a major Who villain to play, and its the first time the role has ever been given to a woman.

The notion Moffat is ageist is even more ridiculous than the notion he is sexist.