Re: Doctor Who [6]

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:03 pm

It does fit mind you with

Spoiler:

by David H Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:18 pm

Watched Black Spot and Dr's Wife last night. Both a lot of fun! Knowing more than most about square rig sailing, I could easily nitpick a lot of stuff, but that's not the point of Who. They got an important thing right in the first minute when the Dr says something like "or don't you say that?" It's almost impossible to conceive of how many otherwise intelligent people are reduced to growling and babbling meaningless cartoon pirate words when they see a traditional sailing vessel. pirat

I do wish the writers would have taken just a few minutes to get actual sail commands when Avery was setting and taking in sail for the storm, rather than just giving him more babbling noises. It would have been just as funny and more meaningful (both for those who sail and those who don't). I also wish they'd done more accuracy when Amy was resuscitating Rory, if for no other reason that she gives up too quickly (especially when Rory has said he knew she'd never give up!

) This is an important skill that saves many people's lives. It deserves to be shown correctly or not at all. The computer medical officer reminds me a lot of that episode I saw last year with the WWI gas masks and the children.

I'd seen Dr's Wife before. I really enjoy the character of the human Tardis and her interplay with the Doctor. I'd love to see her back sometime! It falls into a pattern I'm seeing in these series of getting a bit too openly psychoanalytical for my tastes (Amy's Choice for example when the Dr says something to the Dreamlord about "I know who you are. Nobody hates me as much as you do." Clumsy writing that gave it all away for me.) But it's done with such charm! I especially liked when she was stumbling over verb tenses. On the other hand the psychological torturing of Amy and Rory by House wasn't much fun, but it's not much fun to nitpick either so I'll let it go.

All of Rory's deaths are starting to fit into a pattern relative to the Doctor's death. I'm hoping it will make a useful point at some time, but for now I'm afraid it's still feeling like Kenny in Southpark. I'm still keeping an open mind though.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:44 pm

to get actual sail commands when Avery was setting and taking in sail for the storm,- David

I have no idea never having sailed a ship that size if the terms used are right or not for what they are doing, - I do know however from behind the scenes stuff about this episode that the terms he does shout are genuine 19th Century nutical terms from the British Navy of the time, hence Amy's "we need a phrase book" and Rory's (and my favourite) "All I heard was rats!"

I agree on the cpr- should have made it clearer but then its not Who's primary job to teach medical techniques. That and since I started in care work the ways of doing it have changed half a dozen times, so it would probably be out of date by now anyway if they had.

"I know who you are. Nobody hates me as much as you do." Clumsy writing that gave it all away for me.- David

I dont know about clumsy- Moffat likes to make his audience to think, and to tease them, but he is also on record as saying the audience should work it out first, if ll the clues arent there its just cheating. Moffat seems to view it as a bit like doing a puzzle, there is no satisfaction if someone comes along and solves it for you.

On the other hand the psychological torturing of Amy and Rory by House wasn't much fun- David

True, but its not meant to be fun, and Gaiman does have a dark streak to his writing. Hire Gaiman youve got to accept it might have parts that are dark in tone.

Remember to watch Night Terrors next, as thats where it should be, before Rebel Flesh 2 parter- but check my previous post for exactly when to switch off to avoid a spoiler t the very end.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:27 pm

"let go the sail. Put the (?) into the sack of the clues(?)"
Is all I can make out, no idea what the clues is or how to spell it but that's what it sounds like. And I cant make out the word over the storm for whatever it is he tells them to put in the 'sack of the clues.'

by David H Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:to get actual sail commands when Avery was setting and taking in sail for the storm,- David

I have no idea never having sailed a ship that size if the terms used are right or not for what they are doing, - I do know however from behind the scenes stuff about this episode that the terms he does shout are genuine 19th Century nutical terms from the British Navy of the time, hence Amy's "we need a phrase book" and Rory's (and my favourite) "All I heard was rats!"

OK, maybe they deserve some credit for a failed attempt then. First he said "Let go the sails" which almost makes sense. If he'd said "let go the sheets", it would have made perfect sense, as sheets are the lines leading from the lower corners of each squaresail to the yard below (or to deck in the case of a course). That's how you spill the wind to take power out of the sail and prepare to take it in. But you can't really "let go" a sail because it's not a line. Why they changed sheets to sails I can only guess. Perhaps they thought the words were interchangeable?

Next, maybe I heard him wrong but it sounded like he said "Put the bunts in the sack of the clews!" I could tell you what all those words mean, but they've been spliced together worse than Auntie and Uncle in Doctor's wife. "Heave ho, you bilge rats!" is just pirate-speak.

"I know who you are. Nobody hates me as much as you do." Clumsy writing that gave it all away for me.- David

I dont know about clumsy- Moffat likes to make his audience to think, and to tease them, but he is also on record as saying the audience should work it out first, if ll the clues arent there its just cheating. Moffat seems to view it as a bit like doing a puzzle, there is no satisfaction if someone comes along and solves it for you.

Don't get me wrong. I like the puzzles. It's when a line jumps out like that, almost like having the actor turn to the camera and give the audience a big wink, that I think it might have been written better. That was just the first example I thought of. And honestly, i'm enjoying just watching these. I'm not really wanting to pick them apart. But I'm mentioning the things that stand out to me.

Remember to watch Night Terrors next, as thats where it should be, before Rebel Flesh 2 parter- but check my previous post for exactly when to switch off to avoid a spoiler t the very end.

OK, maybe tonight. affraid

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:37 pm

they've been spliced together worse than Auntie and Uncle in Doctor's wife- David

That's typical Beeb that is, claim they are genuine nautical terms, true, but fail to mention they are genuine terms for several other things than what they are doing!
Maybe given the point for humour is to say something no one off a ship crew will understand they just went for something that sounded the most inscrutable so stuck a load of obscure sailing terms into one sentence!

"maybe tonight."

If you have the time Id recommend Night Terrors (minus last few seconds) and the episode after, which is first part of the rebel flesh two parter- as that way you will end on a cliff hanger- and there arent many of those in NuWho, so best enjoy and tease yourself with them when you can I say. Nod

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:47 pm

Did a bit of googling-

bunt- The middle portion of a sail, especially a square one, that is shaped like a pouch to increase the effect of the wind.

clew- (nautical) (transitive and intransitive) to raise the lower corner(s) of (a sail)

sack- is a bed or bunk

So the instruction he gives seems to be to put the middle of the sail into the bed of the thing that raises the lower corners of the sail.

Which doesnt sound like it makes much sense to me but is that about right for meaning at least in nautical terms as a translation?

by David H Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:38 pm

Not bad! The bunt is indeed the belly of the sail that produces most of the drive when sailing with the wind. On large sails like these there is a set of lines called buntlines that attach to points along the middle of the "foot" of the sail (lower edge) and can be hauled upward from on deck, allowing the crew to spill the wind out of the bunt of the sail without having to go aloft. (In the classic cartoon of a pirate ship the sails are often hanging in loose scallops below their yards. That's because the buntlines have been hauled but the sail hasn't been furled to the yard. )

Clews are the lower corners of each square sail, or the after lower corner of a for-and-aft sail. The sheets haul the clews down to set the sail, and there are corresponding clewlines that hall these corners back up, just like the buntlines haul the middle of the sail up. Got that?

OK to take in sail you normally would lower the yard first, leaving the sheets fast and hauling on the clewlines to control the yard as it lowered. Then cast off the sheets and haul the clewlines and buntlines, usually hauling the clewlines first because it makes a neater furl.

In an emergency like this though it might make sense to just leave the yard hoisted, cast off sheets, and clew and bunt up. That's what I think Avery is trying to do. There are a bunch of ways to say it, and most will mention clews and bunts, but it's got to be in a meaningful way or its just gobbltygook. Mad

Also, when you want a particular line handled, you call it by name which includes the name of the sail. In this example you might call "Cast off foretopsail sheets! haul foretopsail clewlines and buntlines!" Would that have been so difficult? Rolling Eyes

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:48 pm

Thanks for that David, Ive done some yatcht sailing long ago so I know the basic theories at that scale, just not on a proper ship.

Are they not putting the sails up rather than down, as they have been becalmed with no wind till this point and they want to get away?

"In this example you might call "Cast off foretopsail sheets! haul foretopsail clewlines and buntlines!" Would that have been so difficult?"

Given they filmed on a real ship you would think they would just ask the crew- the only thing I can think of, beyond them not caring enough if its accurate, is my earlier point that its meant to sound confusing.
Until you filled me in on bunts I couldnt even make that word out over the storm effects so it just sounds like a lot of obscure nautical stuff- which fits with the humour of Amy and Rory not having a clue what a clew is!

by David H Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:13 pm

They had sails hanging loose in their gear if I remember. I'll check tonight. The biggest danger of a sudden squall in any size vessel is a knockdown or rig damage, so the first thing you'd want to do is take everything in, except possibly a single headsail, usually the innermost forward staysail, which will tend to weathervane you down wind and cause the ship to start gathering way in a controlled manner. Then sails would be set a little at a time depending on conditions.

Given they filmed on a real ship you would think they would just ask the crew- the only thing I can think of, beyond them not caring enough if its accurate, is my earlier point that its meant to sound confusing.

I know. That's what they usually do with us. The actors love trying to learn new words and mimic the inflections of the sailing master. Isn't the real language just as confusing as the gibberish? And doesn't that actually make it funnier? I dunno...

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:30 pm

Isn't the real language just as confusing as the gibberish? And doesn't that actually make it funnier? I dunno...- David

I see your point, but the replacement line you suggested-

"Cast off foretopsail sheets! haul foretopsail clewlines and buntlines!"

I would have understood the gist off, if not the exact meaning of the last part- whereas as they did it, I hadnt any idea what he was saying. Maybe thats what they were going for?

Still an episode on a ship! I thought that might appeal.
That episode is generally considered one of the poorest of that series, and I was not hugely impressed at the time I seem to recall.
But actually I think its an effect of coming off the opening two parter and leaving the mystery of the regenerating child hanging.
Taken on its own I have really enjoyed watching this episode again, over all the best word to sum it up I think is 'fun'.

ps did you notice in the Doctors Wife if Amy says c**t!

If not double check see if Im going mad- its at 35minutes 30 seconds in, when Amy covers her nose with her hand.

by halfwise Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:03 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
I agree on the cpr- should have made it clearer but then its not Who's primary job to teach medical techniques. That and since I started in care work the ways of doing it have changed half a dozen times, so it would probably be out of date by now anyway if they had.

Yep, when I took it 6 months ago it turns out the breathing part has been tossed out! Shocked

Seems pumping the chest pumps the lungs anyway, so keep it simple.

by David H Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:30 pm

Halfy, isn't the rule still that once you decide to administer cpr you continue until you're relieved or until you're physically exhausted though? That's an important one, and they set us up for it when Rory said he knew Amy would never stop. That's why I was particularly shocked when Amy just quit.

Petty, I've heard the same command ordered as "Cast Tops'l Sheets! Clew and Bunt Up!" Would that be more obscure? But honestly, if the boaters can decode it at least partially, and the nonboaters can empathize with Rory and roll their eyes at the boaters, isn't that the best of both worlds?

I did enjoy the episode. Do you know which ship they used? And I liked that they chose Avery and gave him a family life. I just can't help seeing ways it could have been improved technically for basically no time or cost.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:55 pm

"Cast Tops'l Sheets! Clew and Bunt Up!"

No argument here- that is a better line. Nod

"Do you know which ship they used?"

No and its making me quite crabbit as I have been to several sites already to find out and so far nothing Mad

- I may have to track down the confidential episode for this one, Im sure they mention it.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:53 am

Nice vid, brought a crabbit buckied tear to my eye Sad

Spoiler:

by chris63 Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:17 am

by David H Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:16 pm

Terrors and Flesh I last night.

I also checked Amy's comment in Dr's Wife on learning she was breathing Nephew.

Having gotten the best sound and the closest view of her mouth that I could, I believe what she says is "Oh come..." then a quick edit cut to the small cough. I think I can see her lips meeting in the "M" below her arm, as opposed to an "N" which should in theory look more like a sneer, especially in this context.

I don't know why the rest of Amy's line was shorted. Maybe just because they thought the cough said it all.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:23 pm

Thanks for checking. Just me then!

You are going well- you are only two episodes off the mid season finale (and at least you dont have to endure the six month wait between there and the next episode. Moffat!!!)

by David H Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:17 pm

I finished Almost People and Good Man last night. The Flesh episodes worked well I thought. They did some of the things that I still love about original Star Trek of exploring how we choose sides in a war when we're more alike than different. Plus all the chases through tunnels and surprises that I expect from classic Who, all the while advancing the series plot.

Good Man though had issues. I don't mind the parade -of- old -friends gimmick so much, and I don't want to get into what was done with Amy's motherhood yet (though it was quite disturbing).

But like with Pandorica, I was really disappointed by the 11th Dr standing on a podium, shouting defiance at all his enemies. I've always seen the Doctor as the archetypal quiet rumpled wise man who keeps the world running smoothly from behind the scenes.

Whether a Doctor, a wizard, or a Jedi, one of their great strengths is that their humility, which isn't without its arrogance, but it's the arrogance of an Einstein not the arrogance of Conan the Barbarian.

It's the same problem I have with Gandalf and Saruman settling their differences by hand-to-hand combat. The characters are weaker for it.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:26 pm

shouting defiance at all his enemies.- David

He has does this quite a lot, including Classic series- the 4th Doctor was quite given to big speeches of this nature, and 10 was one for bigging himself up in speeches too "Im the Doctor., Im a time Lord, I'm 900 years old and Im going to save everyone on the planet below. You got a problem with that?" ect

And the purpose, or one of the purposes of that episode is precisely to address that issue, of the Doctor as hero and demi-god- "The man who can turn an army around just with the mention of his name" (Think 10th Doctor telling the Vashda Nerada In Silence in the Library to 'look me up' and they just withdraw when they do) hence Rivers speech.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:45 pm

Doctor Who [6] - Page 37 Imagephp_zps17693f38

Summer Falls by Amelia Williams
(Inspired by the Doctor Who episode The Bells of Saint John)

Spoiler:

by David H Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:02 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:shouting defiance at all his enemies.- David

He has does this quite a lot, including Classic series- the 4th Doctor was quite given to big speeches of this nature, and 10 was one for bigging himself up in speeches too

I know it's there. It's all part of the schizophrenic mix that make the Doctor a fascinating character. But IMO it's one of his least interesting traits and one of his weakest. It seems a shame to focus on it so much. Again, in my opinion, it doesn't make for very strong or interesting episodes.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:33 pm

Well cant argue with whether or not you like that aspect of him or not.
But that aspect of him is being directly addressed by Moffat in order to reduce it, it's just first the Doctor himself has to be aware of just how arrogant, full of himself he has become which means he has to act that way in order for River to prick his balloon as it were.

"This was you, this was all you. You make them so afraid."

by David H Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:51 pm

OK I'll watch for that. I guess this shows the challenges of trying to write two storylines at once, one for the episode and one for the series. Maybe I should say I thought A Good Man goes to War was weak as a stand-alone episode compared to others in the series (though still fun), but that it brought a lot of loose ends together from the perspective of the overall series.

I guess that's an example of what I mean when I say "patch". Patches are good if they hold things together, but the best patches are almost invisible against the background fabric of the episode, if that makes sense...

And again, I'm just giving you my instantaneous reactions to the episodes as I watch them. I'm completely prepared to change my mind as I see more and think more on it.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:03 pm

Fair enough.

There are plenty epiposdes my initial reaction too has changed since first view, the Flesh two parter I didnt think was too strong, now I really like it and enjoy it a lot more.

Series 6 is kind of notorious among fans for being split between those who thought there was too much story arc episodes and not enough stand alone episodes, and those who felt the stand alone episode dont work (regardless of individual qualities of an episode) because they were nothing to do with the story arc.

I was kind of in the middle watching- when you have to wait more than a month and several episode between the opening set up episode for the story arc and the 'sequel' to that event in a Good Man Goes to War (technically the Flesh is a story arc episode, but you have to be a lot cleverer than me if you realise that before the last five minutes when lot of things suddenly slot into place) then the stand alones were sometimes frustrating.
When I watch series back now I tend to either watch a standalone, or watch all the arc stories in order.