Doctor Who [6]

So Petty, I'm close enough now to the end of series 6 that I think I'll hold my comments till the end.

But without giving me any spoilers, when would it be OK to watch the River edit? I'm starting to put together a timeline for her in my head, and I'd like to know at least how many more episodes till I can check it.

Sorry Dave no, as it contains hugely spoilery stuff from Series 7 too.

"the 11th Doctor strikes a sour note whenever he tries boasting, strutting and bullying."

Missed this, not reopen this one but yes, that for me is the difference, 11th' strutting is all part of him coming to the realisation he has got too big for his boots- prior to that with 10 particularly its just just how he is without the self realisation (which doesnt hit him until Waters in Mars right at the end of Tennants run- when in his own words "I've gone to far" and instead of just acting like a God he tries to be one)

I've been thinking about the Doctor/God thing.
First this is not a continuation of any prior disagreements, especially Figg with you.
I was sharper earlier than I meant to be in my replies, for reasons I'd rather not go into you got me a bad time as it were. But those no excuse, just an explanation. So if I offended I apoligise.
Nevertheless I hold to my overall view, and as your wont Figgs you got me thinking.
And actually I think you, me and David are largely on the same page on this- none of us like the Doctor when he does these things and think it makes him seem arrogant and over confident and cocky. I think that's true regardless of any personal preferences over which actor.

The Doctor as God thing has its main roots in the 7th Doctor.
Before that there were things that could be interpreted in ways that implied the God thing- the question of exactly how old he really is has hung about from the beginning, and the Doctors own claims to his age only served to muddy the waters not clarify them.
Also there were lines like 4th's ponderous “I'm not like other people. I walk in eternity,” for example.
But it was the 7th it was made deliberate.
The plan for the 7th which never came to fruition due to the cancellation was that he would be one of the three founding fathers of Time Lord society, along with Omega and Rassilion. The mysterious godlike The Other.
But it never got that far, McCoy only did two series.
But in those two series they did lay all the story seeds for their grand plan not knowing the show was to be cancelled.

Which brings me to 10.
RTD seems to have used and run with this god idea with 10.
With the height of it coming in Waters of Mars.
But it is Moffat who seems early on to have taken the chance to sow the seeds for getting rid of it, by first accentuating what RTD had done by making him explicitly godlike. (Incidentally this seems to have been a long term Moffat/RTD plan of some sort. Moff always speaks highly of RTD and so I'd rather think it was joint and not just Moffat subverting RTD- but you never know).

In 10th Doctor story Silence the Library (Moffat penned) he uses his name as enough in itself to make the enemy retreat, and River tells him of the future Doctor where armies would turn and run at the mere mention of his name (as happens at Demons Run and Colonel Runaway), and that he can open the TARDIS doors with a snap of his fingers- which Tennant then does at episodes end for the first time.
RTD took all this even further with the year that never was story and the Messianic Doctor borne up on the population chanting his name.

Moffat continues this right away in 11th Hour, where he has the Doctor declare who he is to the Attraxi and ends on “I'm the Doctor. Basically, run!”

He keeps building this theme up as he goes culminating in what I think is the most important character moment for the Doctor since Moffat took over- when he is discussing the baby with Madame Vastra and Dorian in a Good Man Goes to War and he asks why a Time Lord would be a weapon, and Vastra replies, “Well, they have seen you.”
That moment when the Doctor sinks onto the chair as he suddenly sees himself in a whole new, less heroic godlike way, and he sees in an instance what he has become is then made explicit for the viewer by Rivers speech to him.

I dont know where you have got to David so I dont want to say much more but suffice to say that Moffat continues that theme in God Complex with his conversation in Amy's room and eventually all the events that lead to where he finds himself in state of mind at the start of the Snowmen episode.

Moffat has not dropped the Doctor might be ancient and a God, that's clear from River in Angels calling him

Spoiler:

, and the speech in Rings (although thats as much a 50th anniversary speech as anything else I would say)- but he does seem to be addressing the necessity of bringing the Doctor down a peg or two in his own head.

I think the overall plan for is to reset the show to where it was at the start so it has a chance for another 50 years. Where you really dont know about the Doctor and were he doesnt act like a God but goes back to the classic era formula of unknown person who happens to turn up where things are going wrong and saves the day and leaves again still unknown.

And on that I think we could all perhaps agree.

Couple of good vids- first bit of classic Who- from War Games, the 2nd Doctor story, not only the first mention of Time Lords, but also the first of use of something that would not reappear in the show until the 11th story The Doctor's Wife.



And the Children in Need episode, Moffats love letter to his Doctor. 10 meets 5.

actually I dont agree. When Tennant starts getting too big for his boots he has a certain Dark Lord charisma about his sense of omnipotence, and then something Rose says or something inside him makes him realize how terribly wrong he has gone, his contrition is real, it seems like a real rude awakening for him. But when Smith stands on his podium and calls to all his enemies in full sturmaggedon mode, it rings hollow, he doesnt seem to realize how egocentric he sounds, how much he needs a slap, and theres no Rose or Donna around to tell him what a plonker he sounds. Theres just River oiling on about how Mighty he is. yuck.

Im not talking about performance- pretend its Tenant giving the 11th's speeches if you like- its the same thing, as you put it-

he doesnt seem to realize how egocentric he sounds, how much he needs a slap

Thats as true of 10 as 11, and yes Donna and even Rose and Martha all give him a slap- but he still goes back to it every time, even after Water of Mars he has the Universe sing him to his regeneration across space and time. It doesn't stop him doing it except temporarily. His contrition is not real or he wouldnt keep acting that way whenever he has no companion around to keep him right.

Donna: Just promise me one thing. Find someone.
The Doctor: I don't need anyone.
Donna: Yes you do. Because sometimes I think you need someone to stop you.

The real slap he gets

Spoiler:

comes in a Good Man Goes to War in the scene I described, and in Rivers speech.

Exactly what you are complaining about is exactly what all this about removing and resetting and giving him a good slap.  And Moffat has chosen to do it by making it the story rather than just starting by hitting an invisible reset and pretending it didn't happen.

well I am talking about performance, thats what I have been talking about for the last two pages.  

No   we started all this when you said 9, and 10 didn't do any megalomaniac God stuff.
Ive not been talking about performances, just the Doctors god complex.

And like I said above I think we can agree that its not his best character trait and he is better as a character when he doesn't rely on using just his name, or people chanting his name or believing in him with the sort of faith usually reserved for religions.

they dont do megalomaniac god stuff, Smith does. Tennant does judge and jury, and gets a bit bolshy now and again, but Smith goes full on wee wee look at me. ergo. prat.

Pettytyrant101 wrote: by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:00 pm
Im not talking about performance-

Mrs Figg wrote: by Mrs Figg on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:07 pm
well I am talking about performance, thats what I have been talking about for the last two pages. Mad

Petty wrote:No   we started all this when you said 9, and 10 didn't do any megalomaniac God stuff.
Ive not been talking about performances, just the Doctors god complex.

Actually I think I started it with an observation about Pandorica and Good Man Goes to War, but I was talking about the writing.

{{{{ }}}

they dont do megalomaniac god stuff, Smith does. Tennant does judge and jury, and gets a bit bolshy now and again- Mrs Figg

He declares himself the Time Lord Victorous and claims mastery over Time in Water of Mars.

Brooke: But you said we die. For the future! For the human race!

The Doctor: Yes, because there are laws. There are laws of time. And once upon a time there were people in charge of those rules. But they died. They all died. So you know who that leaves? Me! It's taken me all these years to realize, the laws of time are mine! And they will obey me!

---

Brooke: No one should have that much power.

The Doctor: Tough.

Brooke: You should have left us there.

The Doctor: Adelaide I've done this sort of thing before. In small ways, saved some little people. But never someone as important as you. Oh, I'm good.

Brooke: Little people?! What, like Mia and Yuri? Who decides they're so unimportant? You?

The Doctor: For a long time I thought I was just a survivor, but I'm not. I'm the winner. That's who I am. The Time Lord Victorious.

Brooke: And there's no one to stop you.

The Doctor: No.

Brooke: This is wrong, Doctor. I don't care who you are. The Time Lord Victorious is wrong.

The Doctor: That's for me to decide. Now you better get home.

Brooke: Is there nothing you can't do?

The Doctor: Not anymore.


That sounds like God Complex to me. And its way further than 11 goes in my view. And it takes a woman committing suicide rather than let him act like a God to make him even realise.

And in Family of Blood he is described as-

He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm and the heart of the sun.
He's ancient and forever. He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the Universe.

Sounds pretty God like to me.


David are you offering to take all the blame for this?  Good man!  

the writing went downhill when RTD left. Moffats writing is either timey wimey pseudobabble or snippy quippy sound bites.

Is this a new argument, I mean debate, or in someway connected to any of your previous positions?  

Mrs Figg wrote:the writing went downhill when RTD left. Moffats writing is either timey wimey pseudobabble or snippy quippy sound bites.

petty wrote:Is this a new argument, I mean debate, or in someway connected to any of your previous positions?

NO! It's in response to the original question I raised. Did you miss that? 

And just for out of curiosity, is discussion an option to debate or argument?

its a reply to the comment you make next week when you realize you are really your own grandfather twice removed but you were made from plastic so you dont care if you cut your own toenails with a hedge trimmer.

It's in response to the original question I raised.- David

I cant be David, you havent seen all the RTD era. So you could hardly have raised a question about comparing the two. Aha! Got you- so this whole conversation isnt your fault at all- its mine!
Oh bugger.

Im all for trying a discussion- not sure how though  maybe best you start us off David and Figgs and I can try to jump on when we get the concept.

Mrs Figg wrote: were made from plastic so you dont care if you cut your own toenails with a hedge trimmer.

TMI  (but thank you at least for not delving into his sporran again.... )

By the way Mrs Figg, in a few days when I've finished this series, I'd be interested in a discussion about the female characters in series 5 and 6 from your perspective, and any other of the women of forumshire who care to join. I've got some thoughts forming and I'd like to bounce them off you and get your opinion.

{{and we'll see if Petty can behave himself. It'll be torture! }}

You might want to hold off until youve watched to the 5th episode of series 7 David, for the sake of having a fuller picture on that subject.

Mrs Figg wrote:its a reply to the comment you make next week when you realize you are really your own grandfather twice removed but you were made from plastic so you dont care if you cut your own toenails with a hedge trimmer.

That has to be one of the most beautiful sentences in Forumshire.  

cant wait Amy 1 : River 0

Hold that thought Mrs Figg.  

   

Cybermen killed by Power of Love

  

You will get no argument from me on that one Dave!
In fact that episode and the Lodger are two of my least favourite episodes of Moffat era Who.
I never understood what it was about the first one that made it so popular and made them feel it needed a sequel of any sort.
The only parts of Closing Time I like are the bits pertaining to the Doctors Death.
And its not suprising after it that Moffat gave the next Cyberman story to Gaiman to try to do them properly.
Nuwho does not have a good track record on Cybermen stories in my opinion.