Just...................whatever [8]

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Its just a bit odd.Any thoughts? }}

Just a guess, but the late 1600's is about when secret Rosicrucianist esoteric societies were starting springing up all across Europe, and somewhat later in the 1700's Freemasonry added the "Scottish Rite" which has always been associated with Rosicrucian mysteries. So it would seem possible the lodges in England and Scotland were originally independent secret societies that somehow merged in the 1700's, with each branch accepting the other as brothers, but at the same time teaching that the "true line" traces back to Egypt through their home lodge and not the other's. Just a guess, but esoteric societies can be like that....

I was going to say something along the same lines: that identity takes time to form, and though the most freemason like organizations in Scotland predated those in England, the full catechism of roots going back to Egypt may have taken shape in England.

{{{ Not sure that fits the history.
The general regarded belief is that it starts mainly with the Sinclair family- they are the folk built Rosyln Chapel in 1446.
But before that the general belief is that the Knights Templars whilst at Herod's Temple did some excavating and went down into a secret chamber beneath the Temple where they recovered- stuff. Stuff they eventually took back to Scotland as the Scottish King, Robert the Bruce (1274-1329) was excommunicated and outside Papal control and because its possible one of the Sinclairs was a founding member of the Templars. Whatever the Templars had discovered was so important and explosive that it led to the almost immediate and unprecedented ascension of the Templars from an obscure small group of knights to one of the most powerful groups in the world (as I understand it the main bits of the Templar excavation in the Temple are still reinacted as one of the Scottish Masonic Rites). After the Church destroyed the Templars in 1307 a large part of the survivors made it back to Scotland under Bruce's protection (there's a long standing persistent 'myth' which has never been proved or disproved, that what turned the tide at the Battle of Bannockburn (1314) for Bruce was the arrival on the field of a large contingency of former Knights Templar) and its from the remnants of the Templars and whatever they found under the Temple and brought with them that formed the basis for the organised Masonry that then emerged in Scotland over the following 150-300 years leading onto the eventual forming of the first lodge in Scotland. This also explains why Scottish freemasonry has a fond attachment for the legends of Solomons Temple in particular and to Harim Abrif, as encapsulated in the 3rd degree of Scottish freemasonry.
And it is a Sinclair of Rosyln who is listed as the First Grandmaster of the Grand Lodge of Scotland on January 9th, 1599- and it was definitely at that time a Masonic Lodge as the name clearly indicates. Putting it both firmly in the Masonic tradition and firmly predating the now alleged first lodge in London over one hundred years later.  }}

Hmmm.... seems some of the confusion is around the words "Grand Lodge" vs. "Lodge" and what date you start counting from.

Wikipedia wrote:The Grand Lodge of Antient, Free and Accepted Masons of Scotland is the governing body of Freemasonry in Scotland. It was founded in 1736. About one third of Scotland's lodges were represented at the foundation meeting of the Grand Lodge.

The oldest records held by the Grand Lodge of Scotland are minutes of Lodge Aitcheson's Haven which commence on 9 January 1599.[2][3] The connection between the craft of stonemasonry and modern Freemasonry can be readily established in Scotland.[4] This direct connection can be traced from the oldest Masonic written records in the world, which are the property of the Grand Lodge.[5]

Scottish Freemasonry has developed a distinct and unique character, even by comparison with the other British Grand Lodges. The Grand Master of the constitution bears the unique title Grand Master Mason, an office which has been held by many distinguished members of Scottish society.
........

Lodges under the Scottish Constitution are sovereign bodies in their own right, with a considerable degree of control of their own affairs. Many Lodges pre-existed Grand Lodge, all jealously guarding their traditions, and were permitted to retain their own procedures, regalia, and distinctive rituals.[6] Having accepted the principle of independence of old Lodges, it was impossible to deny Lodges founded after 1736 the same level of independence. .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Lodge_of_Scotland

{{Thanks Dave- interesting, especially they say that the link to stone-masonry is clear. Still basically points to Freemasonry in the modern sense of an organisation of Lodges having its roots in Scotland and being adopted later in England to me- regardless of how the English Grand Lodge counts things.

Even odder, the Lodge in Edinburgh I've been citing, Lodge no1 on the roll to which the Sinclair is attributed the First Grandmaster n 1599 is nowhere near the oldest Lodge in Scotland. Its just the official one a it was the first Grand Lodge.
The first goes to one I've heard about all my life as its relatively local, the Mother Lodge of Kilwinning, which is no 0 on the roll and dates itself as far back as 1140 and by the time of the Lodge created in Edinburgh Kilwinning already had its own affiliated Lodges in neighbouring regions such as Greenock.

'Legend has it that Kilwinning Abbey was built by stonemasons who had travelled from Europe and established a lodge there'

It had a slightly contentious relationship with the newer Grand Lodge which were not resolved until 1807 when it became fully incorporated into the main body of Scottish freemasonry bringing its pilot Lodges with it - though within the parameters you mentioned Dave of relative independence of Lodges and traditions. }}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Thanks Dave- interesting. Still basically points to Freemasonry in the modern sense of an organisation of Lodges having its roots in Scotland }}}

I'd say having some of its roots in Scotland. I think the roots in the medieval stonemasons' guild system are undeniable, and those old guilds transcended boarders. When a structure like a cathedral was being built for example, it wasn't uncommon for the project to span generations and to find master masons from two warring nations working side by side for the greater good of the guild, with journeymen traveling from lodge to lodge across all political boundaries. That old guild structure is still at the heart of Freemasonry {{{though almost none of them have ever even swung a stone hammer.... }}}

{{My own view is that we see four different strands coming together by chance at a point in history in Scotland that allowed freemasonry to bloom and to be structured and codified into one thing, freemasonry as we know it.

Id say the four things in order of age are- Scotland's long historical/mythical links to stone and stone work, all the circles, cairns, burial mounds traditions, myths and legends ect which provided a country with fertile ground for  acceptance of the idea of linking the spiritual to the rocks of the earth.
Two a long standing stone-mason tradition that's at least early medieval and quite possibly as old as Biblical times or before- this is the strand that by pure chance some of whom came to Scotland to build an Abbey and formed the Mother Lodge at Kilwinning.
The third strand was the Templar and Sinclair connection, whatever the secret Templar rites were seemed to dovetail with whatever the stonemason traditions were. Sinclair spearheaded codifying these different traditions and combing them and created a new Lodge to be a Grand Lodge over its subsidiaries with himself as its first Grandmaster. Creating what we think of as Scottish freemasonry (this for me is why there seems to be a mix in the practises of medieval thinking and much older traditions -albeit it with a later 18th Century gloss on top of the language- its that blend of the Templar world view and the more ancient stone-mason world view)
And the fourth thing was timing. Thanks to Bruce Scotland was free and had been free for some time of the Catholic Church- the result of which was a lot of free and radical thinking, the very roots of the sort of freedom of thought which later led to the Scottish enlightenment.
Scotland at this time was one of the few places in Europe you could have got away with setting  up something like the freemasons publicly, let alone with some of the most powerful people in the land.

So I think chance played a huge part, and people by chance all being in the right place at just the right time for such an idea to flourish and to have the room to grow }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{
And the fourth thing was timing. Thanks to Bruce Scotland was free and had been free for some time of the Catholic Church- the result of which was a lot of free and radical thinking, the very roots of the sort of freedom of thought which later led to the Scottish enlightenment. }}

That sounds right. On this side of the Atlantic the threads of Freemasonry and the political philosophy of the Scottish Enlightenment were both woven so deeply into the fabric the American Revolution that it would be hard to untangle one from the other.

{{Indeed. I see a thread of thought, or idea in my culture going back as far as history does and beyond- it starts with the circle-makers and the religion, whatever it was based around, which from the later myths and legends we do have set down seems to have had as one of its central premise ideas based around the notion of transformation and transmutation, particualry of the self.
When Christianity came along and these two religions clashed something unexpected happened- they embraced each other and the result was the distinctly separate early Celtic Church- which again kept an emphasis on the pagan elements of stone and wood as well as focusing mainly on the Christ myth and seeing it through the prism of their ideas on transformation of the self.
That idea is of course central to the ideas behind Freemasonry, the building of the perfect temple of the self, raising the self back up and  putting the individual in touch with the creator.
Its an idea that when Protestantism came along and Scotland wholeheartedly embraced it it led to the ideas of the Enlightenment, itself very permeated with the idea of the individual raising themselves up. Including social ideas such as, if you provide the means people can raise themselves up (the early protestant church reasoned that for the individual to gain greater understanding of God and to be closer to Him required the common people could read and decide for themselves what the Bible had to say, this in turn meant everyday folk had to be able to read, so they set up free schools in every parish to that end, creating in the process the free education system still defended by the SNP in government to this day).
And these ideas in turn were front and centre in the foundation of America and the ideas and principles behind it and its economics. But in a sense they are all the same idea: the individuality of self and the right of every individual to make their own choices and decisions without an intermediary telling them what to think, and the right to spiritual self development to move closer to God through a transformative process.
Its the same idea the pre-celtic religions had, it was the idea they saw in Christianity and which bloomed under the relative freedom of thought afforded by protestantism, and it underpins the US Constitution- all the same idea basically. }}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{But in a sense they are all the same idea: the individuality of self and the right of every individual to make their own choices and decisions without an intermediary telling them what to think, and the right to spiritual self development to move closer to God through a transformative process.
Its the same idea the pre-celtic religions had, it was the idea they saw in Christianity and which bloomed under the relative freedom of thought afforded by protestantism, and it underpins the US Constitution- all the same idea basically. }}}

Of course! Spiritual enlightenment through independent bloody-minded crabbitry! It makes so much sense when you put it that way!

{{ Now you're getting it!    }}}

Brilliant !

Speed bumps ahead is my favourite.

Cant be bothered to create a thread this year so click the link to see a couple of photos from RIAT 2018. Got other stuff on there too if you are interested.

{{You got some cracking pictures this year Lance! Nice one   (Glad you named the pics after the planes as I can never remember which plane is which! Other than the B2 and Lancaster- cause they are pretty obvious from the shape!) }}}

Stunning !!

I'm frankly stunned by those nature pics. You could make a living working for National Geographic, and that's no faint praise!

Thanks all.

Halfy - that's the great thing about a digital camera! My strike rate is much higher than it should be if I really knew what I was doing. Many a great opportunity gone begging because I wasn't set up for it properly!

And yet those shots can't be attributed simply to a digital camera. There's some rare care taken there, and talent.

second that !

{{thirded! But yeah dont knock your work there Lance- theres some cracking pictures in your portfolio }}

stunning photos Lance. has your doggie got blue or grey eyes? he is lovely.