Re: All New Who

by Forest Shepherd Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:29 am

Haha, true enough.

by Mrs Figg Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:46 pm

yep but do you want to disillusion kids with all the crappy relationships adults get into? Dr Who is a kids show afterall.

it should be happy and healthy and between equals like Rose and 10s relationship. something positive not something dreary and soul destroying like Amy and Rory.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:57 pm

{{{Rose and 10 wasn't equals- couldn't be more unequal- a 19 year old who knows next to nothing, is ignorant, borderline racist at times, and treats her boyfriend with disdain, cheats on him, strings him along, then throws a wobbly at him when he breaks it off with her! Whilst the whole time having a relationship with a man who is a different species, about a 1000 years older than her and supposedly just about the cleverest most intelligent person in existence, its just weird and creepy and inappropriate, and why? What on earth would he see in this girl? Its a horrible relationship.
At least with River you can understand it.11 knows he is on his last regen, thinks he has destroyed his own race and is the last, and a woman comes along who he knows the parents off well and he is best friends with, she is part time lord, she regenerates, she travels in space and time and she is also a part child of the TARDIS and she has an extended lifespan- you can see the attraction and why he could end up with someone like River. A 19 year old earth girl? Just wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

I can only assume you didn't even watch the Ponds vid Figg, as they have very well chosen several scenes in which Amy and Rory make huge decisions as a team, sharing the decision making and the responsibilities. Their entire marriage is summed up in the words of Amy 'Together or not at all' its the very epitome of an equal relationship- no decision is taken without the others input and agreement.

Here's some classic 'healthy' Rose/Mickey.
Rose on finding out Mickey is seeing someone else-

'MICKEY: I'm going out with Trisha Delaney.
ROSE: Right. That's nice. Trisha from the shop?
MICKEY: Yeah, Rob Delany's sister.
ROSE: Well, she's nice. She's a bit big.

Yeah nice Rose, go straight for her weight.

This is followed up by Mickey giving her a few home truths, shame it doesn't seem to actually change her any in the future-

MICKEY: We could ask about hotels.
ROSE: What would Trisha Delaney say?
MICKEY: Suppose. There's a bar down there with a Spanish name or something
ROSE: You don't even like Trisha Delaney!
MICKEY: Oh, is that right? What the hell do you know?
ROSE: I know you, And I know her. And I know that's never going to happen. So who do you think you're kidding?
MICKEY: At least I know where she is!
ROSE: There we are, then. It's got nothing to do with Trisha. This is all about me, isn't it
MICKEY: You left me! We were nice, we were happy. And then what? You give me a kiss and you run off with him, and you make me feel like nothing, Rose. I was nothing. I can't even go out with a stupid girl from a shop because you pick up the phone and I come running. I mean, is that what I am, Rose, standby? Am I just supposed to sit here for the rest of my life, waiting for you? Because I will.

And then of course she just leaves him anyway. And quick to go on about Mickey seeing someone else but mysteriously fails to mention the 'boyfriend' she picked up in the Dalek episode or her growing feelings for the Doctor who she ran away with leaving Mickey hanging to do so. And when this argument breaks out they are arranging to go to a hotel for the night, and not in the hopes of getting a good nights sleep! She is happy to string him along, shag him even when she fancies it, then bugger of and leave him dangling again!
Yup that's real healthy that is! }}}}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:25 pm

{{{Malick- its an odd one that. Dunno why Barrowman seems to think its otherwise. Not like Moffat has a problem with other spinoffs running at same time- SJA only stopped because of untimely death and Class starts soon.
Plus why would Barrowman think Moffat has that power over Torchwood? Its not like he has power over Who, he still has to answer to the execs and they make the big final decisions on stuff like budget, content, broadcast times, commissioning, hiring and firing.
Maybe the reason Torchwood has not been back on TV is simply because Miracle Days was appallingly bad.

Not sure what bBarrowman was trying to do here, but if you make accusations like that you have be certain and some proof of it, all he seems ot have done is created unnecessarily bad blood between the man who first gave us Captain Jack and the man who plays him- surely reducing the chances of seeing him again in Who }}}

by malickfan Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:36 pm

Don't really see the point in this to be honest, it's freely available on DVD or streaming and the Blu Ray version isn't even a remaster from the original film footage just a upscale, and it doesn't include any new special features.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:13 pm

{{Quite agree Malick- seems like a quick and cheap cash-in by BBC Worldwide trading off the back of the popularity of 8 from his appearance in the 50th short.
A popularity Moffat probably doesn't get enough credit for, I rewatched it recently and given Moffat had 6 minutes to tell it in, a limited cast, the lead actor for a short amount of time, and only a short time to write and prep for it, yet it's extraordinary tight.
And it cunningly presents a series of quick scenes which allow the 8th Doctor's character to come out in a variety of circumstances, we see the best of 8- so we first get the dashing Edwardian traveler, swooping in out of nowhere to rescue the bright young spark- we basically get a really short this is what he is like getting a new companion scene- then it all goes tits up when she finds out hes a Time Lord and the War comes up, and we get the passionate moral 8th, we get the almost childish, flippant yet wittily dismissive 8 with his initial back and forth with the Sisterhood and his final self sacrifice of being the Doctor in order to become the Warrior needed to win the Time War and his love and remembrance of all his companions.
Moffat wrote a showcase for the 8th Doctors personality and made it a compelling mini narrative leading to a regen at the same time.
Had Moffat screwed it up we wouldn't be hearing 'bring back 8 in a spin off', it would have been 'at least thats the last we will see of him, the TV movie was shit anyway'

On the plus side though nor we would have BBC Worldwide selling an upscaled blueray as if its something we haven't already seen (or in fact with the right program on a pc can do ourselves!) }}}

by malickfan Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:02 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Quite agree Malick- seems like a quick and cheap cash-in by BBC Worldwide trading off the back of the popularity of 8 from his appearance in the 50th short.
A popularity Moffat probably doesn't get enough credit for, I rewatched it recently and given Moffat had 6 minutes to tell it in, a limited cast, the lead actor for a short amount of time, and only a short time to write and prep for it, yet it's extraordinary tight.
And it cunningly presents a series of quick scenes which allow the 8th Doctor's character to come out in a variety of circumstances, we see the best of 8- so we first get the dashing Edwardian traveler, swooping in out of nowhere to rescue the bright young spark- we basically get a really short this is what he is like getting a new companion scene- then it all goes tits up when she finds out hes a Time Lord and the War comes up, and we get the passionate moral 8th, we get the almost childish, flippant yet wittily dismissive 8 with his initial back and forth with the Sisterhood and his final self sacrifice of being the Doctor in order to become the Warrior needed to win the Time War and his love and remembrance of all his companions.
Moffat wrote a showcase for the 8th Doctors personality and made it a compelling mini narrative leading to a regen at the same time.
Had Moffat screwed it up we wouldn't be hearing 'bring back 8 in a spin off', it would have been 'at least thats the last we will see of him, the TV movie was shit anyway'

On the plus side though nor we would have BBC Worldwide selling an upscaled blueray as if its something we haven't already seen (or in fact with the right program on a pc can do ourselves!) }}}

Indeed, it was the perfect ending for the 8th Doctor i.m.o.

Spoilered for length, Analysis/Review Of The Night Of The Doctor

Spoiler:

The Night Of The Doctor remains a very clever piece of writing and one of the most tragic, thought provoking regeneration stories of them all i.m.o, moving though heroism to tragedy, ticking many of the boxes of a typical Who episode, and capping off The 8th Doctor's era surprisingly well in less than seven minutes if you are looking to prove that Moffat can write constrained simple character drama this is the story you need to show people. It isn't a groundbreaking, flawless story by any means, and as a seven minute minisode filmed at the last minute it does come across as somewhat rushed. Bringing back and regenerating the 8th Doctor in a suitably dramatic manner, setting up the scale of the time war and explaining the purpose and beginnings of the War Doctor would have been hard even in a standard episode, in seven minutes it's even more so, but I still think it remains a very fitting, gripping ending for the Eighth Doctor, packed with a surprising amount of pathos and fanservice nods to the Eighth Doctor's history in the expanded media.

Firstly it's interesting to note the parallels (accidental or not) between NOTD and the TV Movie. The 7th Doctor made a brief (though perhaps longer than he should have done) appearance in the TV Movie, which hints he had already been through a significant ordeal not too long ago off-screen (and doesn't bother explaining why he was transporting the Master's ashes or the more subdued change in his personality...NOTD doesn't bother explaining how the Doctor happened to be in the same general area as Cass's ship and Karn, Why The Sisterhood were waiting and ready for him to appear and why the 8th Doctor isn't quite the same man as we saw back in 1996 (ironically the 7th Doctor seemed to be more relaxed and subdued in the TV Movie, here the 8th Doctor seems much wearier and bitter) after his regeneration, the 8th Doctor has massive involvement with the story. In NOTD McGann makes a brief, unexpected appearance (for some...but I thought it was obvious from the start Hurt was the 8.5 doctor and was half expecting McGann to show uo) but with a huge involvement in the plot of his regeneration story, his immediate successor The War Doctor has no involvement with the plot of NOTD, but is preparing to enter a huge conflict following off-screen.

The TV Movie and NOTD are mirroring book ends for the 8th Doctor i.m.o, both starting midway through a wider story, the former shows the 8th Doctor ‘born’ in a hospital (well, it’s the hostpital's morgue) out of a violent accident due to the actions of a would be companion trying to help him and questioning his identity, the latter sees him make a deliberate decision to sacrifice himself in the midst of a war after failing to save another near stranger who refused to go with him, during circumstances which don't appear to be entirely coincidental.

The Seventh Doctor regenerated into the 8th a couple of hours after his supposed "death" in a random gunfight, in NOTD, the Eighth Doctor dies in a spaceship crash after a determined decision to stay and help and is resurrected long enough to allow him to regenerate into the War Doctor, whether on purpose or on accident, some of the plot structure of NOTD very much hearkens back to McGann's first story, at first glance it's arguably overtly referential, but I'd still argue it was a nice gesture on Moffat's part, McGann sadly never had the chance to explore the character very far on T.V and it feels only right his final adventure (or perhaps more accurately, the bit we see of it...) pays tribute to his first.

The very first thing the 8th Doctor says in the TV Movie was to question 'WHO AM I???' in NOTD his first words are to refer to himself as a Doctor, the very first thing the War Doctor does is to declare himself to be "Doctor no more". It's rather ironic, in the TV Movie the 8th Doctor started out as an amnesiac unsure of how or what he was 'WHO AM I???' but upon regaining his memories in the park showed himself as something of a joyous highly moral romantic, I’ve always considered the 8th doctor to be a deliberately more pacifist reaction to the 7's scheming and more reserved, machiavellian nature, in NOTD, 8 finally dies by deliberately choosing to regenerate into something the antithesis of his usual personality, it's a very interesting parallel and a full circle journey for McGann's Doctor, told in barely a hour's screentime, it's rather ironic the star of the TV movie which was once deemed to have killed Dr Who stone dead is also the incarnation that casts away the moral promise of the character.

Looking at NOTD beyond the storyline I think it is interesting to think about the reasoning behind redesigning the Eighth Doctor's costume (beyond the obvious facts that A) his costume would have changed in such a long lifespan and B) Licensing and rights issues meaning his Dark Eyes costume couldn't be used. The new outfit does seem to take limited inspiration from the costume he wears in the Dark Eyes (and presumably all of the Doom Coalition audios that follow) audio stories and similar outfits from the Comic stories, using darker hues and more practical, hard wearing and 'lived in' material than the Edwardian Esque fancy dress costume he wears in the TV Movie and beyond (not that I don't like his TV Movie costume, it suited his younger personality perfectly). I recall McGann mentioning in an interview (it may have been on the Dark Eyes Bonus Disc) that the leather Jacket he picks up in Dark Eyes (albeit 'off camera' not sure how you'd phrase that for an audio adventure...) was meant to be a WW1 Naval Jacket-reflecting both the idea of the Doctor as a 'space mariner' of sorts (i.e much like a sailor he's a wanderer in time and space, the difference being the vortex and space are his ocean) and his persona hardening as he aged and grew ever more wearier as the time war approached, here it's evolved even further into leather boots and a trench coat (both of which also seem reminiscent of WW1) combined with a more worn waistcoat than 1996, the 8th Doctor may not be an active fighter in the time war, but he's certainly dressed in preparation for the consequences of it.

But overall, the 8th Doctor's new costume in NOTD seems to be a more aged and 'grown up' version of his TV Movie costume — still vaguely Edwardian, with a few recycled elements and a similar colour scheme, but redesigned from the ground up as something more practical, adult and grounded. Like his tardis, it's very battered around the edges by the conflict, the recycling idea suggests that the Doctor was desperate to return to 'better times' (or perhaps, as he tells Cass desperate to keep telling himself he was still the Doctor and still a 'good man' standing apart from the wider conflict) and recapture his early, carefree days. It also reinforces the idea of his Doctor coming full circle-a new, but similar costume shows the passing of time, a return to his routes, but reassures fans of the TV Movie we are in some ways picking up where we left off again for McGann's Doctor. It’s certainly my personal favourite of the 8th Dr’s costumes.

NOTD, despite being less than 7 minutes long packs alot into its narrative, and certainly shares similar elements to what you'd find in a standard episode. The first part of NOTD takes a regular event of 'New Who' - the introduction of a potential new companion, Cass (portrayed by Emma Campbell-Jones, who had previously appeared in ‘The Wedding Of River Song’ and had voice roles in several Big Finish audioplays) comes across as plucky and likable and is quickly invited to travel with the Doctor soon after he answers her distress call...but then twists it into something completely different, the expected ''It's bigger on the inside” line is cheerfully delivered as always by the Doctor, but becomes an immediate source of anger/terror for Cass, as recognizing the mysterious blue box is a tardis and the Doctor a timelord, she rejects the Doctors's help, and chooses death instead, this was not only quite a nasty way to respond to the Doctor's heroism, it throws the audience's expectations out of the window in the first 30 seconds.

(This scene has A couple of Easter eggs that were noted on the TV tropes page; in the novel The Eight Doctors, which starts immediately after the end of the TV movie, the 8th Dr says at one point: "Let's just say that I'm a Doctor. There's more than one, you know, clearly, I'm not the one you were expecting.", his first lines in NOTD are very similar, whilst The Doctor arguing with a suspicious female acquaintance he's just met through a locked door in a moment of crisis is another callback to the TV movie-he does the same with Grace in her house.)

Cass's actions here do several things at once, firstly and obviously, it offers a sufficiently dramatic reason for the Doctor to die in the opening minutes of the minisode, a would be companion refusing to join the Doctor (especially one as cheery and open as Eight) is a very rare occurrence and it instantly explains to viewers just how bad the time war is getting, if even the Doctor is seen in a negative light (and such a battered state) and has to clarify that he is 'one of the nice ones', since the Doctor is willing to risk his life to save a complete stranger who seems to outright hate him, it also sets the 8th Doctor up very strongly as a idealistic ‘medic’ if you will trying to help from the sidelines, giving more weight to the ‘War' Doctor incarnation that soon follows fighting at the front.

It also gave McGann some simple, but clear and dramatic material to react against and guide his performance that doesn’t really require any strong characterization or detailed info dumping about the 8th Doctor. Much of his performance in the TV Movie i.m.o (from memory, even a huge fan of 8 such as me can only watch it so many times...) was driven by the Doctor's enthusiasm about figuring how who the new 'him' was, here with only a few minutes to spare Moffat evidently has the sense/lack of courage to give McGann dialogue that makes a lot of the decisions for him- in NOTD his Doctor is very much sure in his morals and purpose (however misguided), the story is driving the Doctor, not the other way around, it’s an arguably generic reaction you’d expect of any Doctor, but it certainly fits very well with McGann’s incarnation.

If I was being critical I think it was more McGann's presence that truly sold the persona of the 8th Doctor here, rather than the lines themselves (though the slightly childish enthusiastically flippant one liners 'The Front crashes first think things through!' 'Bring me knitting' and 'Keepers Of The Flame of Utter Boredom' seem straight out of a B.F audio), Moffat though apparently a fan of McGann ( he was actually approached by Big Finish in their very earliest days as a potential writer, and attended their very first meeting, but apparently walked out as he only wanted to write for the then unsigned McGann) probably wasn't overly familiar with the 8th Doctor and wisely i.m.o lets McGann play the role rather than trying too hard to write it for him.

The 'safeness' of Moffat's script is perhaps more obvious on Karn (the 8th Doctor having previously met them in B.F's Sisters of the Flame/ Vengeance of Morbius). This second section is written as a straight forward climax - a quick build up to McGann’s regeneration and, in turn, to Day of the Doctor. NOTD was the first official acknowledgment of the nature of the War Doctor (though most of us had guessed who he was months beforehand) and exactly how he fitted into continuity, so McGann who was himself the first attempted torchbearer from Old to New Who does the same sort of thing once more passing on the character to another 'missing link' in the list of actors to portray the Doctor.

A would be companion and innocent bystander dying as a consequence of the Doctor’s actions seems tragic (or exciting) enough to justify a regeneration (those who are familiar with his adventures in non televised stories will know companions meeting tragic endings is a sadly all too frequent occurrence for the 8th Doctor at least Eight of his prose/audio companions have been killed whilst travelling with him) but justifying the abandonment of the title and promise of “Doctor” is a much harder to sell especially with a largely unknown doctor (reestablishing McGann, and/or turning his character around in just one minisode or ep was always going to be hard no matter how heroic Moffat wrote him) but one with a very clear personality and legacy, it's something that relies on the mythical weight of the barely seen Time War, and arguably prior knowledge of 8's persona to get the job done, I think McGann makes it work largely due to his charisma, but NOTD is perhaps a little too ambitious for seven minutes,
it certainly leaves you wishing for more.

The Eighth Doctor dies by getting caught in a jumble of continuity references, tragic heroism and snarky punning, after cheerfully blundering into someone else's emergency, out of the blue with little to no apparent plan and several dead pan puns masking his pain...having listened to almost of all of McGann's audios and read an increasingly large number of the BBC EDA novels, it remains an oddly fitting ending for such a last minute, quickly written production….

I rather like the symbolism in Eight's first and last actions as the Doctor-in the TV Movie, when Eight is looking for clothes in the hospital right after regenerating (and screaming quite theatrically 'Who am I!!!???'), he finds the Wild Bill Hickcock costume in a locker, reaching into the locker he finds the gun holster, examines it quizzically and puts it down straight away. Before taking the Elixir on Karn he picks up Cass' bandoleer and surveys it forlornly, when he regenerates into the War Doctor, he immediately picks up Cass's bandoleer and puts it on, this is pretty powerful i.m.o, one of Eight's first acts was showing his abhorrence of violence, whereas the War Doctor's first was in immediate preparation for it. To me that's a true journey the 8th Doctor had spent his life trying to stick to a strict moral code, avoiding using weaponry or entering direct conflict if he could, very much a healer in spirit not a warrior, this one act shows his journey from idealistic romantic charmer to utterly broken old man forced to grow up and take responsibility, he is given the choice as to how to regenerate, and picks a warrior, the very thing he had spent his incarnation striving not to be, it's a tragic and complete 180 degrees journey told in barely an hour of screentime.

This tragic irony is proven further by looking at the 'Promise': Never cowardly or cruel. Never give up, never give in (another ironic callback for Eight, in the audio Zagreus, infected by the virus of the title name he encounters visions of the previous Doctors who tell him 'No matter what happens, no matter the odds, we never, ever, ever give up!')

Eight arguably broke the promise by finally giving up, it's more tragic considering he was one of the least cruelest, and idealistic Doctors of them all, and certainly not a coward. Perceived as a monster simply by being a Time Lord, no matter how much of a 'good man' he tries to be, Eights final downfall as a Doctor was remaining a moral idealist till death, Cass's simple rejection of his help finally tips him over the edge, in short his compassion (oddly enough the 8th Doctor had a companion called (rather ironically) Compassion) lead to his death, it's perhaps the most Doctory regeneration so far.

One interpretation I’ve read is that the Doctor chose to crash (In the B.F Audio Max Warp, he supposedly dies in a spaceship crash but it turns out to be a flight program) here he actually does die in a spaceship crash, because finally broken, he understood, via the death of Cass, that no matter what he did as a neutral party trying to help from the sidelines, the war would continue to tear apart the universe and no amount of 'healing' (metaphorical or actual) as the Doctor would/could bring it to an end. The 8th Doctor might have saved himself from the crash by simply stepping back into the TARDIS and running away once more (or materializing his Tardis around Cass and kidnapping her), but he chose not to, staying in a futile bid to persuade Cass face to face, to put aside her hatred and terror and come with him, although the last living act of this Doctor was one of futile heroism (a gesture which tells you everything you need to know about the 8th Doctor), as such the 8th Doctor was actually the first to break the promise by giving up and giving in to his fears. Whilst I’m not sure I’d agree with that interpretation, such desperation carries over into the War Doctor.

The War Doctor, who, though born into battle, doing terrible, but necessary deeds in the process and (judging from his personality in DOTD,and the audio stories) believing himself falsely to be a monster, wanted nothing more than to be and act like the other Doctors, end the war and prove himself as equal to the man he once was, yet fought willingly all the same, the morality and courage of the War Doctor acts as an inversion of the 8th’s i.m.o, as he walks an opposite path, starting out as an outcast warrior, ironically becoming more of a Doctor as he approaches the fateful last day of the time war, it subverts the usual journey you'd expect a soldier to follow in a war, and i.m.o is one of a number of reasons why creating the War Doctor over using 8 or 9 in the part made for a more interesting story (even it was a piece of retroactive continuity thought of at a reasonably late stage of production), but that's a discussion for a different time...

That said, it is hard to say the 8th Doctor wouldn't be changed and developed by the war. Although the 8th Dr seemingly retains his streak as a romantic, largely idealistic pacifist at the time of his death (albeit rather wearier and more bitter around the edges) it doesn't mean he didn't experience the full horrors of the war first hand, it is very clear from the way he says his final lines in NOTD he was close to breaking point.

Thinking about how NOTD reflects his journey in the audios, this conversation between him and Lucy in ‘The Resurrection Of Mars’ springs to mind, reflecting on his differences with the 7th Doctor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVxCGG79qt0

Coupled with the events of 'Mary's Story'

Spoiler:

and his rejection of conflict in the Dark Eyes audios (paraphrased) 'I will not join you in this insane war across the timelines!...I'll fight the Dalek's if and when I have to, but I'm not looking to start a war', I think 8's moral position on the war shown in NOTD was a very fitting evolution of his character in the audio stories, even if Big Finish hadn't really begun to explore the timewar directly at that point.

Personally I think there's is more drama (and likely better stories) seeing a Doctor pushed close to the edge, rather than falling right over it, a man who makes the choice to become a warrior is more cliched than a man faced with no choice (and i.m.o harder to sympathize with, I guess it depends on how cliched you view the Doctors pacifist streak is) The War Doctor is born into Battle rather than forced into it and has a very different perspective than his predecessor, now that Hurt has signed up for the audios, it will be interesting to see how far BF explore the parallels and differences between the 8th and War Doctors, we are going to hear two very different viewpoints of the time war, starting at opposite ends of the conflict over the coming years...

I've read some argue the 8th Doctor's actions and refusal to fight are an abdication of responsibility and that it diminishes his Doctor by giving him the easy way out, and whilst that's an easy point to make, I don't agree. The more of McGann's Doctor's I've read or heard, the more I see it as a testament to his strength of character, to me there's something reassuring and poetic, that the Eighth doctor doesn't consider his long history of personal losses and grievances good enough cause for walking down the road to double genocide (the Doctor has always seemed to be above petty grudges i.m.o), rather the losses and grievances he suffered turn him in the opposite direction, steering him into doing his utmost to save lives from the outskirts of the conflict, seventeen years after his first appearance he'd grown older and wearier but remained fundamentally the same sort of Doctor(Night of The Doctor was actually my first exposure to Paul’s Doctor, and it is partly down to this idealistic sense of heroism that I became such a huge fan).

More importantly McGann virtually picks up where he left off i.m.o, you can still see traces of 'These Shoes! They fit perfectly!' in his performance, the wry humour and warmth of the TV Movie are there, but it's easy to see them worn down by the weight and trauma of 12+ years of audio stories. I think there is alot of scope and drama to be found in future time war audios (or any other medium which explores it), exploring why the 8th Doctor doesn't fight even after all his losses (and likewise why even the War Doctor has his reservations), to me it adds to the tragedy and mystery of the conflict, knowing even the Doctor after so many losses would have to be forced into taking part, it certainly speaks volumes about his idealism and misplaced sense of hope.

The War Doctor (and 10 and 11) was eventually willing to further break the Promise by taking a calculated decision to sacrifice innocents to end the war, however as The Day Of The Doctor showed, he redeemed the lost and broken Doctor before him as well, by not destroying Gallifrey and giving reason for those incarnations that followed to reclaim the name of the Doctor-obviously before Hurt's Dr was invented we'd all assumed it was 8 or 9 that 'pushed the button' (for me it was the latter) and there wasn't all that stuff about the promise and innocent children being pushed down out throats, so 8's sacrifice hits all the harder, he may not have been willing to fight in the war, but he realized the bigger picture and was, in the end willing to sacrifice himself to become a man capable of ending the conflict, the War doctor gave up his morals without choice, the Eighth Doctor gave up his life twice over and the moral code by which he had lead it, it's hard to say which one was the more powerful ending.

However I was always a little confused/curious as to why Eccleston's Dr, seemingly reasonably fresh from the Time War was apparently fine with picking up the name and purpose of the Doctor straight away (more to the point...it would be a little odd to be slaughtering Daleks left right and center whilst calling yourself a 'Doctor') without 'earning it back' first...anyway as such two, not one doctors were redeemed by the events of Day Of The Doctor, NOTD cleared up a few issues I personally had with the time war.

When the Eighth Doctor died to protect his 'promise' during the Time War, finally broken but at peace knowing he had kept true to himself, the universe brought him back to life and threw it all back in his face almost mocking him, even in death he couldn't sacrifice himself to save another. It's ironically tragic and pretty damn cruel, The Doctor with such a love of life, who would rather die than fight, dying as a broken man then being brought back to life, confronted with the corpse of the woman he failed to save, being convinced that killing is necessary, then almost immediately 'dying' again to become a man capable of it in the space of a few minutes...it's alot to fit into such a short time, and as such NOTD does come across as a little rushed the more you watch it, but it remains a very powerful way to go, packed with symbolism i.m.o.

Eight dying and then being resurrected forces him to re-evaluate his role, and moral position on the time war, he can be the Doctor and run away from it again, or he can change and do what needs to be done. As I see things, he knew in his hearts that his current incarnation could never could sink that low, but his final action is choosing to regenerate into a incarnation capable of doing so. In a metaphorical way, the universe at this point was invalidating the whole of the Eighth Doctor's life, this also returns to the idea of the 8th Doctor coming full circle, ‘born’ alone out of a violent accident he deliberately embraced a more romantic, carefree approach to life (after the manipulations and chess playing of the 7th Doctor), but in the end was drawn back to conflict and darkness, dying alone to become a warrior.

So the Eighth Doctor dies both a failure and hero, NOTD was a small scale character piece with huge repercussions for the Who canon, so although it's not as epic as having the 8th Doctor destroy Gallifrey would be, I think it's a fascinating, hugely compelling piece all on its own and i.m.o a very fitting ending.

I personally always struggled to see the 8th Doctor fighting in the timewar (in my head he died much as he did in NOTD, helping others from the sidelines, the 9th Doctor being 'born' in the latter days of the timewar doing the dirty work) and now knowing how the Day Of The Doctor unfolded i.m.o having the 8th Doctor 'destroy' Gallifrey, only for his actions to be cancelled out again by the moment or (depending on your interpretation) being stopped from happening wouldn't have been worth hypothetically breaking the 8th Doctor into a bloodsoaked outcast any furtheri.m.o, In NOTD he dies as hero saving a stranger, then once more chooses to regenerate into a warrior foretold to bring an end to the conflict, as a doctor he's both redeemed and outcast by these actions twice over, for such a romantic and joyous Doctor I think it remains very fitting his regeneration was heroic, but ultimately futile and downbeat, rather than bittersweet and hopeful like the War Doctors was, tragedy is more tragic when it actually sticks but I suppose that's an argument for another time...

The Eighth Doctor questions whether the regeneration will hurt, wanting to be in pain as he becomes the Warrior, horribly conflicted about what he's going to do as his next incarnation (something else noted on TV Tropes, ''The Doctor yells "Get out! GET OUT!" exactly like he did in the audio stories "To the Death" and "Dark Eyes: The Great War" don't recall if that's accurate though), and salutes some of his Big Finish companions the first time the TV series had directly endorsed the audios, though they weren't all of his companions by any means:

All New Who - Page 31 Nfk8xTZ

(I think there's been two or three others already)

That's why his final line ''Physician heal thyself" hits so hard, it shows his fear about what will follow, an ironic hope that things might return to normal in the future, as well as him seeking redemption for the breaking of the promise by the incarnation that followed. The last act of hope of a desperate and dying man, it also acts as an apology of sorts (it's particularly ironic considering the fates of the companions he names) finally at his breaking point, he is directly killing "The Doctor" (both the person and 'promise' of the name) in order to become the warrior that will end the war, but as it's a quote from Christ (fitting the literary Byronic romantic that is the Eighth), it also brings to mind the idea of him passing on the burden to the next Doctor.

I'm partly inclined to say that the 8th Doctor 'Era' as it were, by virtue of being almost entirely explored in fan aimed ancillary material, needed to end quietly, unsatisfying, surprisingly or some combination of all three (NOTD manages to do so). As much as I've come like McGann's Dr, I'd argue the 8th Doctor for many is unfortunately more defined by his absence than stories - a character whose defining trait is that he was played by Paul McGann in a wig (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way...it's mostly down to NOTD forming my introduction to Big Finish that McGann became 'my' doctor!) an actor who spent most of the era not playing him officially on screen, except at the very beginning and end, for many his Dr is now notable for appearing in a just two regeneration stories and not much more recognizable as Doctor Who (well at least in terms of the TV show, the audio dramas, comics and novels though all great formats in their own way are probably out of reach or of limited interest to many viewers unfortunately) so having a short, downbeat internet minisode for his regeneration story seems oddly fitting from a out of universe perspective, though the endorsement of the Big Finish audios certainly adds more weight to proceedings, and has certainly widened interest in the non TV stories.

Looking back on NOTD nearly three years later, the 8th Doctor going out as a tragic hero essentially committing suicide due to a sense of misplaced moral idealism and chivalry in a simple, straight forward Doctor saves civilian story, still seems a surprisingly fitting ending i.m.o, evidently Moffat did his homework, or works better under pressure...NOTD may have started half way through a story, and as a 7 minute internet minisode it probably wasn't what many McGann fans were hoping for after such along screen absence for the 8th Doctor, but i.m.o it's a very symbolic, unflinchingly tragic ending to the 8th Doctor, though I understand why others may have felt differently.

At the very least, without a clear ending in sight for McGann's Doctor (who had been pushed in so many different directions in the books and audios, at times it is hard to pin down precisely what marks a 'proper' 8th Doctor story) in the ‘wilderness years’, NOTD gives Big Finish a very clear ending to work towards as they explore the time war in greater depth over the course of future years (whereas with the War Doctor's he arrived fully formed at the end of his life, B.F have a interesting challenge of working backwards and building his Doctor's character up from earlier in his timeline...) and it leaves just enough questions and breathing room (why did the Sisterhood have those potions ready? How was Cass's ship damaged? Why was the Doctor keeping neutral for so long? And what happened to 8's other sonic screwdriver? etc) for a very interesting lead in/expanded final story for McGann whenever that happens to be...

I wonder if they will consider upscaling any more of the Classic Series? Not sure if there would be a big market for it, and you probably couldn't do too much with 30+ year old videotape quality footage but alot of the DVD's are out of print and Classic Season boxsets might attract a new audience...

by malickfan Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:07 pm

http://www.cultbox.co.uk/news/headlines/bbc-says-new-doctor-who-spin-off-is-not-suitable-for-kids-to-watch

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:26 pm

{{Well that makes sense its a BBC 3 show and its target audience is 'young adults' }}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:42 pm

{{Just a variety of Who vids which caught my eye.

First, I found this quite fun and interesting. Its the opening of 11th Hour, including title music, but using classic radiophonic workshop Who soundtracks (and if you are a Hitchhikers fan its amazing how many similar phrases are used in their Who stuff and in it)

Next up just a very nice vid

This isn't directly Who related, its Moffat related, a clip I stumbled on fro an episode of Press Gang, his first show for kids, and his first tv show at all in fact. What I found interesting, beyond the subject matter, is that Moffat has his lead character speak for him- Linda's words- 'we always make the assumption we are dealing with people with a certain degree of intelligence' this has essentially been Moffats mantra for writing tv with a child audience from the get go, and is almost worded exactly the same as statements he has made in response to the charge Who is too complicated for children. Its also, particularly if you are fan of the show, always great fun when Linda gets her crabbit rant on Very Happy

}}}

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:34 pm

{{just lovely Sad

}}

by malickfan Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:19 pm

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/doctor-who/news/a809302/david-tennants-10th-doctor-who-is-voted-the-best-tv-character-of-the-21st-century-after-a-tense-battle/

Kinda ironic that the Doctor arguably furthest removed from the original character remains one of the most popular...

by halfwise Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:36 pm

Funny since I really didn't like him in the role. It's why I never got into nuWho. I've loved him in other roles (Casanova comes to mind) but for some reason he just got under my skin as Dr Who.

by malickfan Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:30 pm

halfwise wrote:Funny since I really didn't like him in the role. It's why I never got into nuWho. I've loved him in other roles (Casanova comes to mind) but for some reason he just got under my skin as Dr Who.

Tennant's a weird Doctor for me, because it was his stories and performance that got me interested in the show, then I started to watch the classic series/listen to audios and over the years have, paradoxically become less and less fond of how his Doctor was written, everything they tried to do with the 10th Dr (tragic romantic figure running from past trauma who ultimately falls victim to his own flaws) McGann does better in the audios i.m.o...

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:12 pm

{{{ The writer of Who spin off Class, Patrick Ness talks about the show}}

{{Weird thing I always find with Tennants Doctor is that a lot of his best episodes he isn't in much, or isnt in it as the Doctor- Blink and Turn Left he is barely in and Human Nature/Family of Blood he plays human John Smith for most of it.
Or of his other best stuff the character is more traditionally Doctory due to ether circumstances (Midnight/ Waters of Mars) or writer (Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead/The Girl in the Fireplace -I could so easily imagine that last one being an 8th Doctor story). }}}

by Mrs Figg Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:13 pm

Tennant is my favourite Doctor. He has my favourite companions too. Nobody could beat Tennant and Donna. when I think of the Doctor I imagine Tennant, I love his quirk, and his gentle joyful moments, he can do dark and dangerous just as well. he isn't the most 'alien' Doctor but that doesn't bother me. He has given me some of the best moments in all of Who.

I thought Buffy would have come higher. Shocked

and what about Xena warrior princess?

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:20 pm

{{{Tennant is certainly a good actor and he has some excellent episodes, and even in poorer ones he can be very engaging to watch. But out of all the NuWho Doctors he seems the most detached from canon Doctors. I don't get the sense of the previous nine incarnations in 10 very often, he is like a stand alone Doctor most of the time, but I do get that sense of the weight of his previous incarnations from 9,11 and 12.

I'd give Xena one Figg Nod

(a vote obviously) }}}

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:56 pm

Nobody could beat Tennant and Donna.- Figg

{{Hypothetically I think they could. By which I mean that whilst Donna is my favourite Nuwho companion she is paired with my least favourite NUWHo Doctor, and some of my least favourite (and favourite) stories.
I honestly think that the character of Donna is so strong as is the strength of the performance that she would be my favourite companion had she been with any NuWHo Doctor. She frankly all but singlehandedly saves some of the worst of that eras episodes with her performance. I'd dearly love to see Donna and 12! }}}

by Mrs Figg Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:24 pm

I wouldn't. its not a good match.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:13 pm

{{What makes you think that? I think the more alien, less relating to humans 12 would be perfectly matched to Donna's very human personality- plenty of scope for both humour and understanding and growth to emerge. Plus two great actors firing off each other

}}}

by Mrs Figg Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:23 pm

its not a good match because 12 can be very abrasive, Donna can be very abrasive, you need oil and water not sandpaper and sandpaper. if Donna had met 12 she would never have become softer and less shouty.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:00 pm

{{I see what you are saying, just not sure I would quite agree. Donna's compassion and humanity came out most strongly when the Doctor was lacking in them- her first appearance she stops him from seemingly committing suicide (going on the version in Turn Left)- it appears he was just going to stand there till the water drowned him and presumably not regenerate- she stopped him by making him see he was taking it too far. Same goes for her big breakthrough as it were in Fires of Pompeii, its her compassion in the face of the Doctors determination not to save anyone because the rules say he cant that saves the Pompeii family. I could easily see her playing a similar role with 12's seeming lack of of compassion.}}

by **Amarië** Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:50 am

I feel I'm a little skeptic to Donna and 12, but I think it's more the fear of the unknown. We know what we had and Donna was wonderful. But I do agree that 12 needs a Donna-esque figure. At least he has, guess it depends where he is in his life this season.

by Mrs Figg Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:28 pm

what he doesn't need is a twentysomething human female. its boring. it doesn't fit him well, I think having a male companion would have been a better match. mind you I am not really invested in 12 and don't like him much so I am not really fussed either way.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:21 pm

I think it's more the fear of the unknown.- Amarie

{{Well not a fear you need as obviously its not happening- was more speculation on my part that Donna's character and Tate's performance are so strong that she could have been a companion to any of the modern Doctors and it would work. That and a desire to see two great actors on screen together.

guess it depends where he is in his life this season. - Amarie

I dunno where he will be, but my hunch is having fun now. He has the weight of the Time War lifted, which has already had a strong effect on him, and though he knows he lost Clara and that she was super important to him, he doesn't feel that loss as he has no memories of her to get over- so hopefully shouldn't be much moping about like 10 after Rose, Martha, Donna, and 11 after Amy and Rory. I might be utterly wrong but my gut feeling is that Moffats final series will be focused on fun and adventure. Hence more stand alone episodes and Nardole as a seeming companion, and from the little we saw of Bill she seems likely to be a source of a lot of amusement.
That's my instinct so far anyway on the news we have (official news that is -staying clear of unofficial spoilers).

he doesn't need is a twentysomething human female. its boring.- Figg

Was good enough for RTD he did it every single time- didn't have a proper male companion once- yeah there were odd episodes where Jack or Wilfrid or Mickey would tag along but they were never proper companions in the traditional sense.
Moffat gave us the wonderful Rory and it looks like if Nardole is not a regular companion this series then he is a recurring one, so we will have another male companion it seems.

I am not really invested in 12- Figg

Its interesting that your favourite NuWho Doctor is the one least like the traditional Doctor template, whilst 12, who more than any other NuWHo Doctor embodies his predecessors, you dislike.
Although I have to admit some puzzlement to not liking 12 coming from anywhere frankly, as for me I can't see where he has put so much as a facial tick wrong in his performance, he simply is the Doctor for me, with every fibre of his being. }}}