Re: Doctor Who [8]

by Forest Shepherd Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:15 pm

Love and Monsters was great!
I mean, sure, the Absorbaloff is utterly ridiculously disgusting. But that episode has some great moments, AND is a rare example of a Dr. Who episode that does not star the Doctor and his companion.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:33 pm

Well, someone had to like it!

It does tend to top worst episode ever polls rather often (along with Fear Her).

It has its moments, a few, there are some good character moments, but the premise, and in particular the way its carried out is really poor- that scene at the end where the Absorbaloff is trying to run away and the Doctor just keep zapping him back is so cheaply presented its farcical, and not for the reasons the script thinks it is.

I would say the best Doctor lite episode is either Blink or the Girl Who Waited (there is a Doctor lite and a companion lite episode every series, to give the actors a break in the middle of shooting)- TGWW partly because its so cleverly crafted most people dont realise it is the Doctor lite episode of that series (there is only one winner for the companion lite episode though- Midnight from the RTD era)

by David H Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:39 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

I disagree about Strax in comparison to Gimli- Pj took an existing character and made him into the jokey character- Strax was written from the start to be the jokey one and to appeal to the lower age end of Who's regular audience 6-10- to whom he has been a big hit, kids love him.

Kids love Gimli too. But a Sontaran nurse who wears dresses??? Rolling Eyes

Come on Petty! Tell me anything in Sontaran lore that sets a precedent for that. Suspect

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
But I am still uncertain what you mean by these characters being in lieu of plot- as they all serve important plot functions.

It's not the gayness or straightness that I'm referring to. It's the fact that many of the episodes feel rushed to pack in all the plot details (we've talked about this before: the challenges of telling a complex story in a short time-slot) meanwhile we've wasted precious minutes on minor character's personal relationships. If they want to do the soap opera, do the soap opera. If they want to write a sci-fi adventure, write a sci-fi adventure. If you want to do both at once, make a feature length movie and cross your fingers. If you want to do everything in one hour, know your limits and scale it back. That's all I'm saying.

by bungobaggins Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:48 pm

Speaking of the brilliant ideas and writing of the RTD era. The whole End of Time episode made me cringe so hard.

You know now that I'm watching this again, maybe it's satire? Shrugging

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:52 pm

Kids love Gimli too.- David

My point was rather Gimli is a rewriting of a character into something else.
Stax was created to appeal to the child section of the audience (at least half its viewers remember) from the very beginning, so I can hardly complain that I dont find him always appealing when he does exactly the job he was meant to, and seems to do it well.
And if I said he hadn't made me smile from time to time I would be lying.

'But a Sontaran nurse who wears dresses??? Tell me anything in Sontaran lore that sets a precedent for that.'

When we are introduced to Strax we are told he is a nurse because he is serving a penance by being made to look after the weak and sick- something Sontarans find offensive, if you get weak or sick you should kill yourself or ideally go down fighting, not cry for a nurse.
And its heavily implied that this penance was something the Doctor thought up for him- and it is very Doctor.

The dress thing is based of the fact that Sontarans are clones, grown in batches with a lifespan of anything up to 14 if they are unlucky enough not to die in battle.

As such they not only dont have sex, they dont have sexes at all.
There are no male or female Sontarans, there are just Sontarans and they all look and sound pretty much the same.
Moffat often makes jokes at Strax's expense about his inability to comprehend the idea of male and female.
So the dress joke is a play on that. We have never actually seen him wear one, he wear a suit when in Victorian London.
As is Strax continually referring to female characters as Boy or Lad a joke on the same facet of Sontaran society.

So yes, it does all have a basis in Sontaran lore. Very Happy

Sadly Bungo I dont think it was- they really meant it, they really though after Bush Obama would somehow save the world. I hate that whole Master Race concept- well actually I don't, I hate that its the entire plot of the first episode and the cliff hanger, and that's its resolved in abut two lines of dialogue and a literal wave of a hand. Mad

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:57 pm

If you want to do both at once, make a feature length movie and cross your fingers.- David

It wouldn't be Who if it tried to stick to one thing- thats what makes it different, its always trying new fits, and they dont always work, but its important they are always trying or it would become stale.
If Moffat just continued what RTD did and RTD had just continued what the show was when it went off the air it would never have lasted this long.
Yes it over reaches sometimes and falls short, but so long as the ideas are pushing at what drama normally has the capacity to fit into its doing its job for me.
It should spark imaginations, especially in the younger audience, and I think it still does that very well.

by bungobaggins Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:22 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Sadly Bungo I dont think it was- they really meant it, they really though after Bush Obama would somehow save the world. I hate that whole Master Race concept- well actually I don't, I hate that its the entire plot of the first episode and the cliff hanger, and that's its resolved in abut two lines of dialogue and a literal wave of a hand.

Seriously, watching that just now made me think it might have been satire all along. "Oh, President Obamer is going to fix all our problums!" How could anyone sit down, write that, edit it, and still think that part was worthy of staying in the episode???

Is that how RTD thinks American politics works? Oh, the president has a plan to solve the world economic crisis! Yeah, and Richard Nixon had a secret plan to get us out of Vietnam. Give me a break.

by David H Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:23 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

Sontarans are clones, grown in batches with a lifespan of anything up to 14 if they are unlucky enough not to die in battle. As such they not only dont have sex, they dont have sexes at all.
There are no male or female Sontarans, there are just Sontarans and they all look and sound pretty much the same.

Those are the Sontarans I would have liked to see. The kind that would die before debasing themselves and be grateful for it. Nod

Moffat often makes jokes at Strax's expense about his inability to comprehend the idea of male and female.

I do kind of like the idea in theory, actually, but in execution it's so like Gimli and dwarven bearded lady jokes.

So yes, it does all have a basis in Sontaran lore.

I'm sure it's all somewhere in the appendices... Rolling Eyes

by Mrs Figg Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:31 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Maybe, but you no longer sound as convinced either that Moffat is just a sexist and that RTD can do no wrong.

thats funny slap laugh

by Eldorion Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:40 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Seriously, watching that just now made me think it might have been satire all along. "Oh, President Obamer is going to fix all our problums!" How could anyone sit down, write that, edit it, and still think that part was worthy of staying in the episode???

Is that how RTD thinks American politics works? Oh, the president has a plan to solve the world economic crisis! Yeah, and Richard Nixon had a secret plan to get us out of Vietnam. Give me a break.

I was really confused by this post until I went back a page and watched the video that you posted there. Holy shit, that was awful. That clip alone almost makes me want to take a side in the RTD vs. Moffat debate, even though I've still only watched a handful of episodes from all of Who. Razz

by Mrs Figg Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:42 pm

watch them all first.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:52 pm

Those are the Sontarans I would have liked to see. The kind that would die before debasing themselves and be grateful for it.- David

You will have to go back to classic Who for those- the ones in RTD era are not meant to be funny, but they are really poor.
I recommend the 4th Doctor story the Sontaran Experiment for the real deal.

But Strax being the clone born warrior who finds himself doing good as a penance is basically the basis of the joke, if he was a typical Sontaran warrior he wouldn't be in the show except as a threat.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:55 pm

even though I've still only watched a handful of episodes from all of Who- Eldo

And yet you say that with none of the sense of shame it should be dripping with! Mad

by bungobaggins Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:11 am

Eldorion wrote:I was really confused by this post until I went back a page and watched the video that you posted there. Holy shit, that was awful. That clip alone almost makes me want to take a side in the RTD vs. Moffat debate, even though I've still only watched a handful of episodes from all of Who.

As confusing as most of Moffat's story lines have been (for me anyway (Has silence fallen yet? I think I missed it)), at least they haven't been overtly political. It's one thing to use sci-fi to get across a subversive political message during the 1950s, but to sit there and leg-hump the President of the United States in 2009 is really fucking pathetic. Also, was the Master seriously wearing a hoodie? What the fuck is up with that?

And, TBH, Eldo,

Spoiler:

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:19 am

confusing as most of Moffat's story lines have been (for me anyway (Has silence fallen yet? I think I missed it))- Bungo

Yes. Its not that confusing.
The Doctor has to be stopped getting to a destination in the future. To do this a rogue group travel back in time to stop him, not realising they are in fact causing the very events they are trying to stop.
Solid scifi time travel stuff if you ask me.

by bungobaggins Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:30 am

Was that what happened when the Doctor stayed in that village during the last Christmas special?

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:37 am

Avoid this bit David- you havent watched this far yet-

Spoiler:

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:44 am

I have heard often that the story is too confusing, (often it has to be said by folks who haven't seen all the episodes) but I honestly dont think it is, you just have to be willing to watch to the end to be able to have the whole story. And its one big story from the start of season 5 to 11's final episode, but its not presented in linear order- here's my take on it and it seemed to make sense to start at the end, as that's where all the players motivations stem from- but I honestly dont think that for a tale that was three series in the telling that its too complicated-

Spoiler:

Any questions? Suspect

by David H Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:28 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have heard often that the story is too confusing, (often it has to be said by folks who haven't seen all the episodes) but I honestly dont think it is, you just have to be willing to watch to the end to be able to have the whole story. And its one big story from the start of season 5 to 11's final episode, but its not presented in linear order- here's my take on it and it seemed to make sense to start at the end, as that's where all the players motivations stem from- but I honestly dont think that for a tale that was three series in the telling that its too complicated-

When you put it that way, I guess you may be right. For a three year long story that's best told backwards, it's really quite straight forward, or straight backward, as the case may be, I guess... scratch

On the other hand, I can't think of another three year long story that needs to be told backwards for comparison. Can you? scratch

I'd say it does put quite a burden on a viewer though. At least one who doesn't plan on downloading or buying the DVDs to remember all the important, though seemingly insignificant clues that passed fleetingly by in the early episodes. It's not really fair to the casual TV viewer who may miss an occasional episode, is it?

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:35 am

The way the arc is done, with it featuring in certain episodes and only appearing thematically in others means there is plenty for the casual viewer too, unless they happen to get an arc heavy episode- but those tend to be start, middle and end of a series.

Series 6 is the most arc heavy of them all and even in that the casual viewer could easily watch Curse of the Black Spot, The Doctor's Wife, Rebel Flesh/Almost People, Night Terrors and the Girl Who Waited without any knowledge of the overall arc required save for a few moments at the end of Almost People which would not effect the understanding of the story told within those two episodes anyway.

'On the other hand, I can't think of another three year long story that needs to be told backwards for comparison. Can you?'- Dave

Of course you cant , thats why Who is unique and genius- it allows for telling a story this way if it wants to try to.

by Forest Shepherd Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:28 am

Stimulating conversations everyone!

I'm up far too late for my timezone, but I was just watching some Classic Who and needed to share. I was watching the Pyramids of Mars, and after realizing that the Voice of Sutekh (played by Gabriel Woolf) was the same as the voice of Aslan from the old BBC/whatever version from the late 80s I went and looked him up on IMDB. I don't mean to gush, but I had some delightful shivers when I realized that Woolf also voices "The Beast" in The Impossible Planet and The Satan Pit.
And although I don't exactly remember that monstrousity of CGI actually delivering any lines, I can't help but appreciate the implied continuity after hearing Tom Baker say tonight something like "Join you?! Every civilized society abhors your memory. Satan, [some other name], Sutekh. It's all the same!"
Gosh. Sometimes I just love Doctor Who.
And although some may complain about the contradictions these two separate episodes create, I can't help but enjoy this particular throwback to the Baker years.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:10 pm

I want aware of that Forest- nice catch. And a nice call back as you say to classic era.

Sutekh's voice is great!

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:37 pm

Your talk David of Vastra, Jenny and Strax reminded of a favourite scene from the Snowmen episode involving them- the one word test- I love how they shot this scene-

by Forest Shepherd Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:25 pm

It is quite lovely. It's no surprise that he is most well known for his voice acting. I far prefer the strength in his voice in this old Who stuff to his Narnia work. His Aslan is a rather lame, breathy creature who often sounds as though he is either falling asleep or whispering his lines (as he is much of the time!). Of course it doesn't help that the Aslan is cloth over a robot frame probably constructed in Japan.
That reminds me of Ralph Fiennes brother's work in Shakespeare actually. I forgot his name (must be his younger brother) but his delivery in the recent Merchant of Venice was infuriatingly whispery. Take me to the casket...

On a Whovian note, I believe the reason the Beast from The Satan Pit was so... beastly, and that I did not remember his voice is that

Spoiler:

So Woolf's actual voice must have been used (ironically enough) for some of the foreboding whispering that torments one of the crew.

by Forest Shepherd Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:12 am

My goodness, I'm loving this scene even more now that I'm not barely awake.

Doctor: "You will use your powers for evil!"

Sutekh: "Evil?! Your evil is my good. I am Sutekh the Destroyer. Where I tread I leave nothing... but dust, and darkness. I find that good."

Doctor: "Then I curse you Sutekh, in the name of all nature. You are a twisted abhorrence--(is cut off by cries as Sutekh inflicts pain upon him).

Very Happy

In response to that video Petty. I enjoyed that episode very much, of course. Even if some of the "oho what a scandal I am" attitudes that Vastra and Jenny showed off to the villain of the story came off a bit snobbish to me, the heart of the whole thing was very good (for Smith's Doctor especially).
However, the scene you posted is an example of the kind of grandstanding that has been occurring a whole lot over the last few seasons whenever characters in the show talk about the legacy or power of the doctor.

Vastra's line, "He was kind once... yes. A hero even. A saviour of worlds," smells of that attitude particularly. It is all very well that the Doctor has accomplished incredible things in the past, but it is far less fun for me to watch a show in which people talk about these huge grandiose things happening than to simply enjoy a good straightforward story containing good simple Whovian elements. Take, for example, Tom Baker's Doctor. I still have only seen 3 series of his, but I find the attitude of people around him to be far more satisfactory than Vastra's or River Song's occasional deference to his amazingness. You certainly wouldn't catch Romana, for example, praising the Doctor in such Christ-like terms.
Looking at this from the perspective of Baker's relatively "small" Doctor, I find the puffed-up verbiage rather irritating.

And sure, the Doctor is happily down-to-earth in his response to the silly (but well-written) One-Word Test ("Oh that thing never works") but the Doctor only has one line here.
The intended drama of the scene relies a whole lot upon Vastra explaining how far the Doctor has fallen from his World-Saviour status and whether or not this Victorian wench can inspire him out of his funk. It rubs me the wrong way.