Stephen Colbert questions Jackson

About a minute and a half in.

Were there any Avari in Mirkwood? If they didn't heed Orome's call would they have drifted that far?

Cuivienen is pretty far from Mirkwood.

Also what was with the multiple story arc bit Jackson went on about?
The only thing I can think of is maybe Azog and the elves. I guess the WC could be involved...

I think we will get a WC/Dol Guldur line, tied to that will be an Azog/Bolg story and Thrain's story and something involving Radagast and a payoff for Galadriels clumsy, 'if you need me I will come' nonsense to Gandalf.

On the other side we will get the dwarves meeting the elves, and bundled in there I expect another storyline about Legolamb and his dear daddy, and another subplot involving Tauriel.

I also expect to get a further story line setting up Bard as some sort of dispossesed Aragorn type being pursued by the Master of Laketowns men.
And possibly even a Beorn story too.
How many storylines is that?

Oh and if we are really lucky there might be a Bilbo storyline in there, somewhere.

I should've titled this thread "Stephen Colbert questions Jackson, as do I."
I wonder how much filler he's got planned this time. Should be most interesting

:/

Most interesting I said

Recoveryanonymous wrote:Were there any Avari in Mirkwood? If they didn't heed Orome's call would they have drifted that far?

Good question. According to text in Quendi And Eldar there seems to have been some Avari in the Anduin Vale, and as far West as Beleriand too.

According to even later text (published in Unfinished Tales) the Elves of Mirkwood, or Tawarwaith, are said to be Telerin in origin and hardly to be distinguished from Avari... which to me means that they were not actually Avari, if difficult to distinguish from Avari.

So once again: did Tolkien revise his earlier scenario? In another late text called Of Dwarves And Men he seems to contradict Quendi And Eldar about Avari making it to Beleriand... but even if this much is truly revised, what about Mirkwood and the Avari?

Again technically the late text in Unfinished Tales rather sweepingly refers to the Tawarwaith of Mirkwood as Telerin in origin (who could be generally called Nandor), mixed with migrating Sindar from the West... but is this meant to include later migrations?

And more confusingly perhaps, according to The Lord of the Rings they are East-elves, and not considered Eldar... but in this context they are not necessarily Avari either [nor are they referred to as Avari even though their languages are not Eldarin]!

Elthir! Good to see you back in your tower dispensing, erm, wisdom. Confusing wisdom but damn it, wisdom nonetheless.

Elthir wrote:According to even later text (published in Unfinished Tales) the Elves of Mirkwood, or Tawarwaith, are said to be Telerin in origin and hardly to be distinguished from Avari... which to me means that they were not actually Avari, if difficult to distinguish from Avari.

I think the fact that they made it as far as Mirkwood is significant in that it shows their willingness to follow Orome at all, quite distinctly different from the Avari.
It means they'd be Teleri technically, right? But more specifically Nandor?

Elthir wrote:Again technically the late text in Unfinished Tales rather sweepingly refers to the Tawarwaith of Mirkwood as Telerin in origin (who could be generally called Nandor), mixed with migrating Sindar from the West... but is this meant to include later migrations?

That's what I'm unsure of; the heart of the matter. By the Third Age, surely the Avari could have made the journey (or rather slow migration), but it was this unwillingness to depart that set them apart at all.

I noticed some things I didnt like & bunged them on the DOS thread;
"Did he say "Ssssccccchhhhhhhhmaug" ?
He couldnt really answer Stephen's question, Why yap on about a bloody mug? Digressing there. And "stealing"? Oh yeah, Id say stealing seemed apt. I think the questions were easily picked out so as not to embarrass PJ, he didnt give THAT much away? Mirkwood looks good on paper but on film is another kettle of fish, (easy frank) Fingers crossed ! "

yeah, but he didn't really reveal anything new anyway. i think the whole thing was a PR stunt really.

oh, and remember, he did this thing "20 questions" on facebook. he said he had tehm ready (after getting 100 000 ish questions) and was ready to post them, but he only answered one (and one unofficial)

And one was a joke about the White Council right?

Recoveryanonymous wrote: I think the fact that they made it as far as Mirkwood is significant in that it shows their willingness to follow Orome at all, quite distinctly different from the Avari. It means they'd be Teleri technically, right? But more specifically Nandor?

That's right. And the names can get confusing (not that you are confused):

Minyar 'Firsts' called the Vanyar 'The Fair' (PQ *wanjâ according to Quendi and Eldar) which referred to the hair of this clan. A name probably given to the first clan by the Noldor. None became Avari. According to the Shibboleth of Feanor they called themselves the Ingwer 'Chieftains' (or Ingwi according to an entry in Parma Eldalamberon 17).

__________

Tatyar 'Seconds' called the Noldor 'The Wise' (PQ ñgolodô). The name 'may have been made before the March' (probably older than Vanyar), given to the Second Clan by the others -- accepted and used by the Eldarin members of this clan throughout later history as their regular and proper name. This clan was evenly divided with respect to Avari. Tatyarin Avari generally refers to Avari from this Second Clan. Etyañgoldi 'Exiled Noldor'.

__________

Nelyar 'Thirds' called the Lindar (PQ lindâ, glindâ), this name referred to the love of the Nelyar for song, for vocal music with or without the use of words, though they also loved water, the motions of which were by the Lindar associated with vocal (Elvish) sound. This was the oldest of the PQ names, which goes back to days before the separation (it is said that: 'The other two probably arose in the same period, if somewhat later...' ). Those of this clan that joined the March were called Teleri 'those at the end of the line, the hindmost', a nickname arising during the March. Nelyarin Avari (or Lindarin Avari) generally refers to the Avari of the third clan.

Nandor 'Those who go back' a name probably given at the time when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March. None of the Nandor appear to have actually returned. Many remained and settled in lands that they had reached, especially beside Anduin, some turned aside and wandered southwards, but eventually groups of the Nandor spread into Eriador. Some finally entered Beleriand, and this people still called themselves Lindi (the form it had taken by this time), and the country in which some settled was called Lindon. The Sindar later called the inhabitants of Ossiriand Laegil, Laegrim 'Green Elves', which term the Noldor translated Laiquendi 'but it was not much used.'

That's what I'm unsure of; the heart of the matter. By the Third Age, surely the Avari could have made the journey (or rather slow migration), but it was this unwillingness to depart that set them apart at all.

They could have, I agree; but I also agree that they are, by name even, the 'Refusers' so one wonders. I think Tolkien mentions the Avari in a late interview as well, but at the moment I can't recall what he says about them there.


Some seem to take Quendi And Eldar as the 'real story', since, while not the latest of texts, it is relatively detailed and includes a fair amount on Avarin migrations, and even the names of some Avarin clans!

I wonder what happened to the Avari in the Fourth Age. They didn't take ship back anywhere because they'd (supposedly) be right where they started by the shores of Cuivienen. How they survived even in the Second and Third Ages is interesting. How would the Easterlings treat their neighbors if they were on any terms at all with one another?

Elthir where are you?

with yooper

I miss Yooper, and I miss Elthir and I miss Turembar.

Turembar is still completely welcome back here if he changes his mind. I doubt many people even remember the circumstances of his departure.

Who's Turembar? Is he a cousin or relative of Turambar?

This is Turembar.


He's an active duty soldier who was posted here a lot for a month or two in the spring of 2012. In particular he wrote a "duet" with Mrs Figg called Haddon Hall, a sort of a tortured dream of a gothic-adventure-romance that can probably still be found in the Creative Corner.

I hope he's doing well.

I really enjoyed writing that. I wish he would come back.