Doctor Who [4]

Dont worry- Moffat isn't going to tell us it anyway.

u think?

Steven Moffat on Doctor Who finale.

Q: What can you tell us about the finale?

SM: It’s full of surprises and questions that have never been answered in the history of Who, including the Doctors greatest secret. We’re not pretending, we’re not kidding, it’s actually going to happen. The episode is called The Name of the Doctor and involves our hero in a conflict that is very, very personal to him. Usually he’s saving other people, but this time he might be the one who needs to be saved. We’ll also find out what makes his new companion so impossible and there’s a surprise that no one has got right so far, and one that will change the course of Who forever!

hold on to that thoguht

btw, last night's ep?

Journey to the center of the Tardis

Spoiler:

Norc- what Moffat says wont be a lie- it just wont be the whole truth. He told us the Doctor defenitley gets shot on the beach at start of imp astronuat to- not a lie, but very short of the whole truth!

He is a master of fan baiting.

Thanks for that correction Amarie-

Spoiler:

Norc- check about 5-6pm tonight.

i watched doctor who yesterday and I cant actually remember how it ended. theyre just so samey now

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Norc- what Moffat says wont be a lie- it just wont be the whole truth. He told us the Doctor defenitley gets shot on the beach at start of imp astronuat to- not a lie, but very short of the whole truth!

He is a master of fan baiting.

Thanks for that correction Amarie-

Spoiler:

Norc- check about 5-6pm tonight.

oki ^^ we'll do

I watched Pandorica/Big Bang last night. There's some really fun stuff thrown in there, but in general I'm disappointed. It seems the Who team are sliding down that slippery slope of action and spectacle over content that we've seen with Raiders of the Lost Ark, Pirates of the Caribbean, and PJ's Tolkien.

Just one example, in comparison to Blink. I loved the faithfulness of both Sally's friend (Kathy? ) and the police inspector (Billy?) in devoting the rest of their lives to carrying small messages to help Sally.

As science it made it clear that we are all time travelers traveling at a speed of one hour per hour through our world.

As a story it was beautiful and poignant. Kathy's grandson delivering a package to a time and address that defied all logic out of love for his grandmother.... Billy waiting patiently for 40 years to make one phone call to a girl he'd only met once.... That's romantic stuff! It's real in a way that asks me to imagine what I might do in the same circumstances.

In contrast, Rory spending 2000 years as an immortal plastic Roman action figure with an Inspector Gadget hand, dragging the Pandorica out of an inferno during the Blitz..... well, it's just harder for me to relate to, and therefore not as romantic.

Often smaller is better when you're telling a story. The purpose of the Doctor's companions has always been to give human scale to the story, to ask the questions that we would want to ask and to give the doctor an excuse to explain to us in a Holmes/Watson way. That's been almost forgotten in the frenzy of action here.

A couple other rants points: if they truly needed to form a grand alliance of all the Dr's enemies of all time (and I really don't see that they did) it certainly deserved more than a few minutes of screen time.

And if there are now such things a wristwatch time travel devices and people bumping into earlier versions of themselves with no perceived consequences, that seems to change the rules that I half remember from the old Who universe.

I'm not calling foul, but I'm not entirely happy either.

the file was damaged, i'm trying to download it again, but i dunno

David I think the difference you re talking about is in overall stylisation.
Who era's are basically flavoured- th Hintcliffe era was gothic horror for example (The Baker years) Adams was space comedy, RTD soap opera and Moffat is fairytale.
Series 5 and 6 in particular- the Pond period of the show is told as a fairytale.
Hence Rory waiting 2000 years like something out of a fairy tale.
Everyting in the Rory/Amy stroy subscribes to he fairytale telling of the story. Think of Litte Red Amy Hood alone in the forest in the Angels story- the entire motiff is of her chidhood imaginary friend that came back and the overreaching theme of the power of memory and story.

The wrist watch is a vortex manipulator- been about in this form since at least 2005- but there have always been other time agencies operating in Who besides the Time Lords- the Daleks made their first time ship back in the era of the 1st Doctor in the Chase.
The rules about meeting yourself have never been watertight in Who- the Doctor has met hmself and companions have met each other on numerous occasion classic and Nuwho. In fact its the stories which say you cant which are actually the contradictory ones.
In the case of the Pandoricca story that universe had collapsed to its epicentre- earth, so the Doctor can bend and risk breaking the rules as its already collapsing.


Bugger Norc- let me know I will put it back up again if its knacked.

yupp, will do ^^

nope. still not working.

Damn uploads - im starting again but will take, well judging from last time between 5-8 hours.

it's okay ^^ i'll wait

A couple other rants points: if they truly needed to form a grand alliance of all the Dr's enemies of all time (and I really don't see that they did) it certainly deserved more than a few minutes of screen time.- David

Sorry meant to answer this point earlier.
Part of the story arc of series 5/6 is that there is a big plot against the Doctor- and he is the only one who doesnt know about it- he is taunted on and off throughtout series 5 with his lack of knowledge- "The Cracks in space and time? The Doctor doesn't know where they come from? The Doctors doesn't know! The Doctor doesn't know!"
If the plot against him had been revealed at any point prior it would have ruined the story that he doesnt know why they are after him or what for.
And that plot is only at its begining anyway, not the end (its still ongoing in fact). The events of the Pandorica (and 'impossible' Amy) are just a part of the opening salvo if you like.

Talking of Blink, it and Pandorcrica are both written by Moffat.


edit add- did you manage to watch the deleted scene that goes on end of 11th hour?

There is another one goes on the end of the Angels two parter- following immediately on from the last scene in that episode where Amy tries to seduce the Doctor-

No I wasn't able to get it to buffer. I'll try to get some wifi time tonight and watch those.

I understand what you're saying about fairytale format, but I think that's often an excuse for sloppy storytelling. Red Riding Hood is at it's best and scariest when told by your own Grandma with long pregnant pauses to let all the implications set in.

In this case there seemed to be strong Peter Pan themes about believing/remembering that were inserted as major plot devices. There's also Rory as Pinocchio.

There's nothing wrong with that if it's done well, but you need to remember that Peter Pan fails if you just focus on the sword fights and crocodiles, and that you need to follow Pinocchio through all his trials before you're ready to allow that he might be more human than some people you know.

You need to give the audience the courtesy of allowing them the opportunity and time to identify with the characters and situation at some level. After watching it once, I'm not left overawed by the power of memory and love, I'm left wondering exactly where/when/how the Doctor was summoned to the wedding, and I'm still left thinking of Rory as a plastic action figure, more like a "Stepford Wives" android.

I'm not saying it was bad. I enjoyed it, but it didn't move me the way Blink did. A little bit like how I feel about RotK compared to FotR. Does that make sense?

I dont think the fairytale format is sloppy storytelling when its a delibrate framing device for the entire run.
It has to still run with Who rules, and it doesnt break those, though it bends a couple.

My own main complaint of all Nuwho is that its too short and too fast paced.
Moffat's style is not to cross all the t's and dot the i', he prefers leaving the info there for the viewer to work out rather than spoon feeding it- I like that myself.
But its the shortness and lack of two and three parters (or more) I miss most from classic- I never feel secondary characters get the time they often need and deserve for the stories to truely flourish.

"I'm left wondering exactly where/when/how the Doctor was summoned to the wedding"-David

He was summoned by Amy remembering him. Simple as that.
It had been established her memory was different as she grew up with a crack in time flooding through her head every night.
And when the bad guys took a memory print of her mind it brought Rory back (who is only plastic in that aborted universe- post it, from the wedding on he is flesh and blood again).

The Doctor planted the seed for his return ito Amys mind with the power of story, the main one being the bedside scene where he tells Amelia as she sleeps about the old man who stole the magic box, and the connections to the wedding rymne that would trigger her memory, as it did and make her remember the Doctor back into existence.

The theme of memory runs for the whole of series 5/6 and I am not sure what you mean by 'insterted'- its one of the underpinnning themes of the series.

Norc wrote:what if his name actually is John Smith. i'de laugh to death.

It says "smiths" on the key the Dr turns when talking to Clara ?? (inside the tardis)

Yes could beone of a few things- Smiths could refer in some way to John Smith- or it could be a production joke on Matt Smith's name, or it could be that the key was made by real world company Smiths- who make parts for the space program among other advanced stuff.

I love a good fairytale if it's told in a way that resonates, so it feels like it taps into some primeval memory. This just doesn't do that for me, largely because it's so fast paced as you say. For example Silence in the Library could have made the shadows a lot scarier if it had just taken a little time about it.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
My own main complaint of all Nuwho is that its too short and too fast paced.

Moffat's style is not to cross all the t's and dot the i', he prefers leaving the info there for the viewer to work out rather than spoon feeding it- I like that myself.

I love mind-benders too. And I recognize I've only gotten highlights of Who. Leaving ambiguity can be an art if done with care. But forgetting to cross the t's and dot the i's is often done out of sloppiness. It's typical of amateur writers, which these clearly are not. But then neither are PJ and Co. All I'm saying is they need to earn my trust, and so far they've not fully succeeded in that.

But its the shortness and lack of two and three parters (or more) I miss most from classic- I never feel secondary characters get the time they often need and deserve for the stories to truely flourish.

Yep! that's what I'm talkin' about! Remember I'm coming out of fond half-forgotten memories of old Who which often went out of it's way to tell side stories.

"I'm left wondering exactly where/when/how the Doctor was summoned to the wedding"-David

He was summoned by Amy remembering him. Simple as that.

OK then, what are the rules? If she remembers an Angel will one suddenly appear? There was one inside her so you would think that would be a particularly strong memory. Can she remember the Doctor at will now and bring him out of the void? That would be awfully handy!

Rory...who is only plastic in that aborted universe- post it, from the wedding on he is flesh and blood again.

Really? OK, I guess that makes sense. So the pandorica never existed, the alliance of evil never existed, so no guard. But the cracks... did they never exist in the new universe? Because they're kind of central to Amy's memories of the Doctor, on which his current existence depends.

The theme of memory runs for the whole of series 5/6 and I am not sure what you mean by 'insterted'- its one of the underpinnning themes of the series.

Memory and reality is a theme that has to be a part of any time travel fantasy. How can a time traveler remember things that haven't happened yet? And what happens to memories of the future when things change in the present or the past? It's plowing old ground so it's OK to do it in broad furrows.

But when you bring in a new rule whereby simply remembering something it can be brought into existence without following the basic rules of cause and effect, now you're into new ground and you've got to plow a little slower.

By forgetting something in this new universe, do things disappear? We should know that. Is this whole universe governed by Amy's dreams and memories, like in Lost? I'm guessing not, because I understand she's going to die, which would presumably end her memories. Maybe these things will be addressed in future episodes, but for now to me this rule feels inserted as a bandage on a weak script rather than a fully developed idea. I shouldn't feel that way if it had just been handled a little more adroitly.

By forgetting something in this new universe, do things disappear? We should know that.- David

We do and the answer is yes. There are no Dalek invasion memories, or giant cyberking stomping about Victorian London, for Amy- these things no longer happened.
The cracks feed on things and they are all over the universe at all times- whole chunks were going missing.

However once the universe was restored it runs as normal on its own, but the restored universe is restored missing the bits already gone- like the Dalek invasion- but plus the things personal enough to Amy- the Doctor, Rory and her parents.

The cracks are sealed, but they still existed even though only they remember- in the Angels two parter Amy asks the Doctor how she can still remember the soldiers who went into the light when they forgot each other- and he tells her that she is a time traveller and no longer sees the universe the same way- we also know from previous episode the TARDIS telepathic circuits get inside your head-it handles all the translation stuff ect, it also lets you see time a bit more like a Time-Lord, from the outside.

I got the deleted scenes tonight. I liked the Space Gandalf one especially.

By forgetting something in this new universe, do things disappear? We should know that.- David

We do and the answer is yes. There are no Dalek invasion memories, or giant cyberking stomping about Victorian London, for Amy- these things no longer happened.

My question wasn't meant to be, "do the memory and the event happen to disappear together?" it was meant to be "does the disappearance of one cause the disappearance of the other?" Because causuality and independence of observer are a couple of the big hurdles to theoretical time travel, so they need to be addressed for consistency.

OK, I may have lost you there...

Let's see if Halfy can give us a short tutorial on theories of causuality in physics, so that we're on the same page as far as terminology, OK?

Off to the quantum physics thread.....

Im not sure quantum physics is really necessary to understand the plot in a show about a man in a magic box but I love a good discussion.

Within show it goes- the TARDIS explodes with its epicentre on Amy and her time- the explosions causes cracks in the fabric of the universe which appear at all different points and places radiant out backwards and forards from that point- but with a marked tendency to follow Amy around.
Whilst they are in existence the eat events and people and wipe them from existence- when they are sealed this stops, but only things added by Amy are restored, the rest that was lost, stays lost.
Time Lords remember all events their own time line was involved in- regardless of whether it then gets wiped, ceases to have existed or anything else.
Amy remembers because she had it pouring through her head her whole life and because she travels in the TARDIS, and is outside the time streams looking in.

But when it comes to time and memory I hope you can buffer this -as the Doctor explains it much better than me-