US General Elections 2020

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:57 pm

{{ Thats true, not sure its morality though. But might be good indicator that the roots of human morality lie in expected actions within the pack/tribe- but that would push human morality even further back in time to before we were even technically modern humans. Making it an even more imbedded natural state. }}

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Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:01 pm

Yes, I think the roots of morality are in group focused emotions. Then people try to apply formal logic to it, and since it's based on such a soft foundation we end up with many different versions of morality as the pillars and beams come together but not always at right angles.

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Post by Lancebloke on Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:37 pm

The roots of morality, as far as I can see it, is through the evolution of humans as a social species as a means of preserving the gene pool.

That is why I disagree that the basics have not changed. I believe that the basics have always suited the situation which sometimes has been that it is OK to wipe out entire civilisations to it is OK to enslave them, to it is OK to rape and torture and to all sorts of other things.

People to this day still very clearly think murder is not just justifies, but morally correct where others think it is abhorrent.

You cant say that the basics of something like "don't kill" are there when at one point or another every group of living things has likely been included in the "moral to kill" bucket at some point.

The basics of morality are about survival and have evolved and adapted as is needed to fit that criteria. Morality has only been considered as right or wrong since there has been a need to justify an action.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:44 pm

{{ I would argue the reason justification is needed to kill, or enslave is precisely because inherently its felt to be wrong, otherwise it would require no justifying in the first place. In term sofmorality 'justification' is just another word for excuse. Here's our excuse why we should kill or enslave. And you only excuse something if there is a norm to set it against. }}

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Post by Lancebloke on Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:21 pm

I think you excuse something if you want to reassure your own group of people that they won't be next and why they should potentially put their own life in danger, not because it is inherently wrong.
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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:35 pm

Pro-lifers are more concerned with controlling women's fertility and bodies than the actual fetus. Abortion rights are all about the right to choose and some people don't like that. It is as old-fashioned and as hysterical as bullying a woman to have kids just because it is socially expected, and that was happening as recently as my mothers generation. It is coercion. The same with marrying off daughters, it was nothing to do with morality, it was about property, wealth, titles and it was a kind of cattle market. The morality of selling off your daughter was conveniently ignored, but that's what I said before, morality can change and shift over time, we dont bear bait or behead people any more but even beheading was done to punish those who had broken moral laws like murder, theft or treason. I personally think humans have a natural revulsion for certain crimes, its a gut reaction, its something inbuilt into our minds otherwise the horrors of war would not turn men mad or give them PTSD. Without inbuilt morality soldiers would not be effected by killing and death, but they are.
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Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:00 pm

It's not inbuilt morality, it's inbuilt herd instinct. Morality is built on top of that as an intellectual construct that will never be a perfect fit because life's too complicated.

Herd instinct is variable throughout the population, probably because it increases adaptability. In a slave owning society some people will have more sympathy for the plight of slaves, others none at all. I'd truly like to say slavery is inherently evil, but I think that comes from the way I was raised. No doubt most slaves would have said it's evil!

But are ants slaves?

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:12 pm

I don't believe it is purely herd instinct, herd instinct doesn't account for acts of unselfish kindness. A herd acts to protect the group but individuals can choose to ignore the group because they find something wrong. Say there is a group of boys tormenting an animal, the group thinks its ok, but one boy instinctively knows it is wrong to torture the animal and tries to stop them. He doesnt get any benefit from stoping them, he may also be attacked, but the instinct for doing the right thing is stronger than the group.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:18 pm


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Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:45 pm

Herd instinct is about protecting the herd above yourself. It's unselfish. Sometimes it spills over to something larger than the herd.

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:57 pm

I think herd instinct is innately selfish, as you know that the herd has to survive for you to survive, its pure self interest. Anyone cast out of the herd will die therefore it is in every individuals self interest to comply with the 'rules' of the herd and make it a success. A lone animal or human cast out of the herd will not survive and those codified rules have gradually become 'morals'. An individual who is violent or a thief is cast out of the herd because it is in the herds interests to have order and pacifism.
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Post by malickfan on Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:32 pm

So...is this just Trump lashing out in revenge, or he is planning something stupid?:

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-2020-election-results/2020/11/06/932376507/trump-dumps-3-agency-leaders-in-wake-of-election

The sudden departures included:

Lisa Gordon-Hagerty, administrator of the National Nuclear Security Administration, the first woman to oversee the agency in charge of the nuclear stockpile. She was required to resign on Friday.

Bonnie Glick, deputy administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development. She was replaced by acting Administrator John Barsa, who had run out of time for his more senior role under the Federal Vacancies Reform Act.

Neil Chatterjee, chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and a former aide to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. He was replaced as chairman, though he will remain at FERC, an independent agency, as a commissioner.


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/09/trump-says-defense-secretary-mark-esper-has-been-fired.html

President Donald Trump announced that Mark Esper has been “terminated” as Defense secretary.

An administration official said the directors of the FBI and the CIA could be next.


No Suspect affraid

I could honestly see Trump starting a war with Iran in an attempt to cling onto power...

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:04 pm

In theory Biden is now president elect and anyone in charge of nuclear/war stuff is going to answer to him before pressing any buttons.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:03 pm

{{ I've seen it all now!! Was watching Fox news live as Trumps press sec was giving a press briefing. And Fox cut away from it few minutes after she started making claims about voter fraud and being denied access, stating they cant continue to air claims for which no evidence has been provided!!
Ok I'm officialy stunned. Shocked }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:22 pm

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1325919329729323015

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Post by halfwise on Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:23 pm

Don't get the Fox News opinion people mixed up with their news people. Their news people are serious reporters - and anyone reporting on these elections who actually went to take a look could see that the states were doing everything possible to prevent fraud.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:29 pm

{{ Not sure Id class him as a serious reporter on previous Ive seen, got plenty time for Wallace and one or two others though. Burt was suprised they did it with this guy, more so if he made the call, and if higher ups made the call not to cover it thats rather interesting too given its Murdoch owned. }}

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:50 pm

Shocked wowzer! when Fox News starts to fact check its game over for Trump.
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Post by David H on Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:47 pm

A good article on how things got so bad here in America. All about profit. No surprise. Rolling Eyes

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/525121-to-see-each-other-we-must-look-past-those-who-profit-from-our-divisions

Here's 3 quotes for the short read:

Of all the healing challenges President-elect Joe Biden’s administration will face — managing the COVID-19 pandemic, reinvigorating the economy, improving police-community relations, restoring America’s standing in the world — the most daunting is the challenge to, as Biden put it, “put away the harsh rhetoric, lower the temperature, see each other again.”  

If the “grim era of demonization” has been, as Biden stated, “a choice,” it has been a choice carefully curated by cable news, social media, special interest groups and political parties, all of which have an overweening economic stake in dividing us. Demonization has become the coin of the realm in American politics.  

The result of these converging developments — cable news, social media, the decision that spending is speech — is that political speech has been transformed. It is all commercial speech now, subject to all the chicanery, exaggeration, and misinformation and disinformation that attends the latest workout craze or diet supplement. Our “era of demonization,” in other words, is the direct result of the application of niche marketing principles to the exigencies of political funding. Tell your supporters that your opponent is an honorable person whose opinions differ from yours, and you gain tepid support; tell them repeatedly over Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, on cable TV ads and free media interviews that he is a raging socialist pedophile whose very existence threatens civilization, or that he is a vile racist who believes that cavemen rode dinosaurs to work, and the money will flow.    

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Post by halfwise on Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:52 pm

Would be nice if candidates who crossed a threshold of support were all issued equal amounts of space on all media and not allowed to show anything else.

Never gonna happen.

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Post by malickfan on Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:15 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/pompeo-trump-run-2024-election-inauguration-b1720645.html


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/mcconnell-says-electoral-college-will-determine-president-republicans-donald-trump-joe-biden-electoral-college-congress-b1720648.html

...I'm sorry...but what in the goddamn f*ck.

Has the Republican party always been this batshit, corrupt and willing to ignore democracy?

Biden won the election by a clear margin in both popular/electoral college votes and has been recofnised as such around the world.

Let's say Trump somehow manages to steal the election or refuses to leave and attempts to cling onto power past January, what exactly would his endgame be? Does he expect American's allies and the 3/4 of the US that didn't vote for him to support his actions?

This is starting to get insane and worrying even for Trump, he really will be dragged out of the oval office by the Secret Service at this rate...

What a narcissistic fascist bloated shitebag, I really despise this arsehole.

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:03 am

Biden won, no matter how much the orange shitgibbon squeals and whines, no matter how many times he sues his fellow Americans, and ties to thwart democracy the fact is slowly but surely the apparatus of government has started to get on with the new presidency. There is no way the government will allow the US to become a rogue state where the dictator refuses to leave the seat of power after defeat. It is worrying, but thats what he wants, chaos and revenge. he will make this process as nasty and tortuous as possible but he will go on 20th January.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:37 am

{{ Good summing up of the moment Biden won-

"The media called the result, Trump was on a golf course, and his campaign were crying fraud in a gardening shop carpark across the road from a crematorium and a porn shop called Fantasy Island."

Kind of oddly poetic and says it all really. Smile }}

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Post by halfwise on Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:53 am

malickfan wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/pompeo-trump-run-2024-election-inauguration-b1720645.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/mcconnell-says-electoral-college-will-determine-president-republicans-donald-trump-joe-biden-electoral-college-congress-b1720648.html

...I'm sorry...but what in the goddamn f*ck.

Has the Republican party always been this batshit, corrupt and willing to ignore democracy?

Biden won the election by a clear margin in both popular/electoral college votes and has been recofnised as such around the world.



Except for Pompeo referring to a second Trump administration everything said by he and McConnell was above board. The actual process doesn't end until the electoral college meets in December, and if Trump wants to mount legal challenges until that point he can. It's ungracious, but what else did you expect from the guy?

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Post by Lancebloke on Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:01 am

And I think I am correct in saying that if, for some reason, this isn't all sorted out and there is a genuine reason that Biden couldn't take office in January, Trump has to vacate anyway.
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