Re: Amazon, Warner Bros in Talks for LOTR Series Adaptation: Variety

by malickfan Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:06 pm

I wouldn't surprised if this Sharon hadn't even read the books, highly highly doubt it's Old Tom (I'm not even sure I'd want Tom Bombadil to ever appear onscreen, the singing might come across as comical and they would probably have to explain his identity/story purpose more clearly than in the book to not confuse casual viewers).

A young Aragorn series seems the most likely choice anyway, as he's already a popular character and they could tie it with the continuity of Jackson's films if they wanted (films in which Aragorn, not Frodo is the main character).

by Bluebottle Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:32 am

That has my interest dwindling quickly. Young Aragon fanfic, who needs that. :/

Making it decent fantasy will require some hell off writing and in depth trudging through the canon. There is a good story there, but telling it well without it collapsing into a parody.. :/

by halfwise Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:39 am

bungobaggins wrote:
halfwise wrote:This is gonna be Hercules does Middle Earth. I wonder who the side-kick is gonna be?

Let's not kid ourselves. We know who it's gonna be...

Ah crap.

by Bluebottle Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:07 am

halfwise wrote:
bungobaggins wrote:
halfwise wrote:This is gonna be Hercules does Middle Earth. I wonder who the side-kick is gonna be?

Let's not kid ourselves. We know who it's gonna be...

Ah crap.

Seconded

by Mrs Figg Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:08 am

Forest Shepherd wrote:Well bother. This is the least imaginative approach that I can think of!

What the heck is a "Hollywood smile"?

too white, too perfect, too big.

by Mrs Figg Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:10 am

Bluebottle wrote:
halfwise wrote:
bungobaggins wrote:
halfwise wrote:This is gonna be Hercules does Middle Earth. I wonder who the side-kick is gonna be?

Let's not kid ourselves. We know who it's gonna be...

Ah crap.

Seconded

thirded

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:13 am

Elthir wrote:What about young or younger Galadriel and her young horse Mithion?

I see what you did there. Suspect

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:36 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:even more infurating later in the Gandalf/Aragorn scene Gandalf tells him not 'regret his decisions' even though he has nothing to regret in the film and personally sent Frodo on his way with his blessing!!!!!

I'm not sure what's so implausible about Aragorn doubting a decision after the fact even if he was confident of it in the moment. Though since we don't get that much of an internal psychological look at Aragorn in Fellowship I think the film is ambiguous as to what extent Aragorn is internally confident and how much he's just putting forward a brave face for the sake of others (both Frodo himself and later Legolas and Gimli) except for moments when his guard briefly comes down. I mean, this is not exactly the look of a man free of any self-doubt, IMO:

Amazon, Warner Bros in Talks for LOTR Series Adaptation: Variety - Page 10 L3uYwI7l

Amazon, Warner Bros in Talks for LOTR Series Adaptation: Variety - Page 10 L3uYwI7l

That's him looking across Nen Hithoel as Frodo and Sam disappear into the woods (not a scene that was in the book, but a valuable moment in PJ and co's story IMO). Anyway, here it is in context (this particular frame comes at about 0:14 in the video below):

Pettytyrant101 wrote:If they really feel they have to tell something from the past tell something interesting- ME history is full of amazing important events, young Aragorn simply is not one of them. The only way to make it interesting would be to contrive a hell of a lot of made up drama and events to pad it out into something. And we have already seen how well it goes when modern filmmakers decide to pad out Tolkien with 'extra drama' we get shite, pure and utter pointless runny shite! No! No! No!

I agree that Young Aragorn is far from the most creative or exciting option they could go with, but I think it goes without saying that any spin-off will require a ton of invented material by the screenwriters. At least with Young Aragorn, we have a fair bit of information about Aragorn's character and motivation as well as some of the other characters he's likely to interact with (Elrond, Gandalf, and Denethor especially). His pursuit of Gollum has already been turned into an enjoyable (and surprisingly well-made) fan film despite almost all of the details in the film being inventions by necessity. Hopefully whoever Amazon brings on as writers will be at least as good at coming up with new material, though I'm more curious to see what they make of his exploits as Thorongil in this case. But on the other hand, if they were going to make a film about the wars with Angmar or something, the writers would be starting even less. This is how Appendix A describes Eärnur, one of the main protagonists of the final war and one of the few characters with a documented interaction with the Witch-king:

LOTR, Appendix A wrote:‘Eärnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual.’

And that's pretty much it. We have a few very brief descriptions of his personal interactions with other characters (including Glorfindel), but they don't really tell us anything more than what's in the quote above. Everything else about him would be the invention of the scriptwriter(s). And this is one of the more detailed scenarios involving early-to-mid Third Age history. The Kin-strife is a fascinating idea in concept, but pretty much all we know about Eldacar is that he was fearless, handsome, and valiant; and of Castamir we are told only that he was haughty, ungenerous, and cruel. I've read some really fascinating fan theories about what else might have been going in Gondor at that time but they're mostly extrapolation, and a narrative adaptation would require character development and arcs of some kind for the main characters. Most of the supporting characters in Young Aragorn would have to be invented too but there's even less Tolkien material to use as a starting point for most of the historical narratives.

TL;DR there's no option here that doesn't amount to sanctioned fanfiction. I totally get being bothered by that but it's not exclusive to the Young Aragorn concept.

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:06 am

malickfan wrote:I wouldn't surprised if this Sharon hadn't even read the books, highly highly doubt it's Old Tom (I'm not even sure I'd want Tom Bombadil to ever appear onscreen, the singing might come across as comical and they would probably have to explain his identity/story purpose more clearly than in the book to not confuse casual viewers).

A young Aragorn series seems the most likely choice anyway, as he's already a popular character and they could tie it with the continuity of Jackson's films if they wanted (films in which Aragorn, not Frodo is the main character).

I don't expect them to seek to maintain strict continuity with the Jackson films but I'm sure they want to attract movie-only fans as well as Tolkien fans. And you're right about Aragorn being the main character in the trilogy.

I totally get being skeptical of movie/TV people who claim to be huge fans of whatever source material they're adapting, just going on precedent, but I'm gonna hold off on casting aspersions at any individuals involved with this project until given specific reason to doubt their claims. Not that Ms. Yguado has even really made a claim, but it's not like reading The Lord of the Rings is something that only a select few do. There's a reason it's one of the best-selling books of all time.

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:24 am

bungobaggins wrote:
halfwise wrote:This is gonna be Hercules does Middle Earth. I wonder who the side-kick is gonna be?

Let's not kid ourselves. We know who it's gonna be...

A Legolas appearance (potentially a major role) seems pretty much inevitable to me, yeah. Whether or not the series is in the PJ "universe", the seed of the idea has been planted through the implication that Legolas knew Aragorn before the Council of Elrond as well as the set-up at the end of BOFA, and many people would genuinely enjoy seeing it. So in a sense it'd be weird for them not to put Leggy in. Shrugging

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:40 am

I'm not sure what's so implausible about Aragorn doubting a decision after the fact even if he was confident of it in the moment.- Eldo

{{Um its completely wrong for the character and story?!}}

this is not exactly the look of a man free of any self-doubt, IMO- Eldo

{{Nor is the look of a man who is about to lament "It is I who have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me!' either.

I dont think a 'look' right after a scene in which he sends Frodo off with his blessing and in full knowledge Frodo and Sam are safe and on their way mere minutes earlier is at all comparative to an Aragorn who has lost control of the situation, has no idea whats just happened or where anyone is and who is questioning his ability to lead in Gandalf's place or to succeed at his overall task.
These are far better, more subtle ways to portrays Aragorn's humanity and self-doubt than 'oh I dont want to be King incase my great granddaddy's blood somehow makes me stupid!' that the films give us in its place. Evil or Very Mad

Parth Galen is hugely important insight into Aragorn's character and nature and personality, and like most things in PJ's version they totally screw it and present us with the exact opposite! Mad

}}

'any spin-off will require a ton of invented material by the screenwriters'

{{This is why its doomed from the get go- why its a shite idea to start with- either adapt what Tolkien wrote as fully fledged stories- do TH and LotR's properly in short, as a literary adaptation not a blockbuster, or dont bother- anything else they try to make will be 99% fan fiction and nothing to do with Tolkien or his works. Its simply a terrible idea.
The best possible outcome is it gives a bit more traffic on here- as an actual idea to do however it sucks balls. }}}

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:59 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Um its completely wrong for the character and story?!

Being "completely wrong" in the sense that it is different from the book does not make it "pure rubbish that they did not in the slightest think through" if the scene works on the movie's own terms.

I dont think a 'look' right after a scene in which he sends Frodo off with his blessing and in full knowledge Frodo and Sam are safe and on their way mere minutes earlier is at all comparative to an Aragorn who has lost control of the situation, has no idea whats just happened or where anyone is and who is questioning his ability to lead in Gandalf's place or to succeed at his overall task.

I didn't claim it was the same, because film!Aragorn and book!Aragorn are (as you have correctly pointed out many times over the years) very different characters in many ways. But I think that the Gandalf line works in the film, even though the context is not the same as in the book. I do not think this is a coincidence, ergo, I disagree that the screenwriters put no thought into it (even if I have beef with plenty of inconsistencies and poor story decisions elsewhere in the films).

This is why its doomed from the get go- why its a shite idea to start with- either adapt what Tolkien wrote as fully fledged stories- do TH and LotR's properly in short, as a literary adaptation not a blockbuster, or dont bother- anything else they try to make will be 99% fan fiction and nothing to do with Tolkien or his works. Its simply a terrible idea.
The best possible outcome is it gives a bit more traffic on here- as an actual idea to do however it sucks balls.

I mean, like I just said in my previous post, I agree that it will effectively be sanctioned fanfiction. I also happen to believe that there is good Tolkien fanfiction out there, including fan-made films. Now, the fact that this series will be officially licensed and produced by a major (well, aspiring to be major) studio obviously makes the situation different. If the series blatantly contradicts established Lore and thereby causes confusion and misconceptions among viewers I will be somewhat annoyed, even though it doesn't bother me when regular hobbyist fanfic authors diverge from the books. If I feel that the creators of the show misrepresent the level of faithfulness they are displaying, then I will argue against that as I did against PJ and Co's claims back before they abandoned that pretense. But I'm open to the possibility that the show will be an entertaining ride either way, and that it might end up working well as its own story with its own aims. If I don't feel that it does though, I'm sure I'll make my opinions about that known too. Razz

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:35 am

Being "completely wrong" in the sense that it is different from the book does not make it "pure rubbish that they did not in the slightest think through" if the scene works on the movie's own terms.- Eldo

{{That depends on what you view the purpose of the movie to be- for me the purpose of adapting a book to film is to tell the books story and convey the books characters as accurately as possible in the new medium- the entire Aragorn/Parth Galen scenes fundamentally fail to do this, and present us with an opposite case of what actually happens. It does not convey the same tone, feel, meaning or purpose of the original book it is supposedly adapting. Therefore it rubbish on the terms of being a movie adaptation of those scenes.
Nor does the defence but it works on its own merits wash at all with me on the basis that it still fundamentally misses the point of adaptation- if it was their own story and ideas then fine, you could maybe make a case that it works on its own merits, I still dont think it does- we see Aragorn reject the Ring so why send Frodo off on his own into Mordor? Why not go with him?- we know in the book Aragorn intended to go with him he simply never got the opportunity because shit hit the fan and spun out of his control- he only makes his decision not to go after Frodo once fate has set everyone's paths in motion- because the choices were made out of his hands in otherwords he simply chooses the best option he can out of those left available- and chooses to go after the captive hobbits not go with Frodo.
In the film he rejects the Ring and sends Frodo on his way before fighitng off a legion of orcs on his own.
But in the scenario they are in it would have made much more sense for Aragorn not to play the hero and take on every orc by himself but to grab Frodo and run back to their camp where he could defend the situation much better with the others at his back.
Instead we get the scene between Aragorn and Frodo because its the end of a film and they want a big emotional scene between those two, and we get Aragorn be the hero fighting hordes of orcs because its the end of the film and they need a big fight.
Those scenes exist as they do mainly to fulfill the 'end of a film feel' criteria- they are not drawn for any narrative, character or sensibly motivated artistic reasons. And the fact they completely contradict the source material its supposed to be adapting is seen as a fine sacrifice for that end of film necessity.

Also Gandalfs telling Aragon later not to regret his actions is stupid on it sown merits- as Aragorn shows absolutely no signs of regret save that one look you highlighted- its never mentioned again, its never vocalized at all in fact in the whole film, and he sends Frodo off with his blessing. The Gandalf line is not earned in the films and has no real meaning as the books showings of regret and self-doubt from Aragorn are completely absent bar your one single glance.

'the show will be an entertaining ride either way' - Eldo

They can make an entertaining ride of their own, if that is all the aim is then make their own fantasy world and characters and story- if they have no mind and no intention of using Tolkiens work as little more than a basic framework to hang all heir own invented stories and characters off then I dont see the point in it at all. There is no deeper merit to doing so, merely the desire to use Tolkien's name to spin gold for themselves.}}}

by Elthir Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:54 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Elthir wrote:What about young or younger Galadriel and her young horse Mithion?

I see what you did there.

But Eldo... I haven't the slightest idea what you mean Very Happy

noro lim, noro lim Mithion!

by halfwise Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:33 pm

Petty - they are not claiming to do an adaptation as I see it. They are claiming to use Tolkien's world and the story framework he set up to tell their stories within that framework.

I'm not saying I think it will work - 'Young Aragorn Chronicles" has too much gravitational pull towards the worn-out models of past TV series that I don't think they can resist the slippery slope. But attacking it as an "adaptation" is wrong-headed.

by Mrs Figg Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:58 pm

Aragorns self doubt in the books got on my nerves

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:43 pm

They are claiming to use Tolkien's world and the story framework he set up to tell their stories within that framework.- Halfwise

{{{ In which case I simply dont see the point of this- if all they are taking is Tolkien's name and his setting, onto which they will proceed to tell their own made up stories which have nothing but passing nods to Tolkien's actual writings its a waste of time and the license.
They would be better off making up their own setting to tell their own stories in and not ruining the good name of Tolkien with this.
A point making TH or LotR's as tv I can see, neither have ever been done well or faithfully- a point to this young Aragorn nonsense beyond a base money grab I cant see, and no good will come of it, mark my words! Evil or Very Mad

}}}

by David H Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:06 pm

Eldorion wrote:
Elthir wrote:What about young or younger Galadriel and her young horse Mithion?

I see what you did there.

I'm still in the fog. scratch

by Forest Shepherd Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:55 pm

Perhaps it's more fan fiction? The only reference to Mithion that I can find in a brief period is a fanfic involving Legolas. They're always about Legolas...

by halfwise Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:56 pm

That's a statement I can accept. I somewhat disagree with it - I think Eldo's reference to doing a history of Numenor or early Gondor could in fact be fabulous if done right with proper respect to the historic ambience Tolkien created. I don't at all feel the same way about the Tales of Trotter. But it's too early to do another LotR until the debacle that was The Hobbit fades from memory. Let old wounds heal first.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:They are claiming to use Tolkien's world and the story framework he set up to tell their stories within that framework.- Halfwise

{{{ In which case I simply dont see the point of this- if all they are taking is Tolkien's name and his setting, onto which they will proceed to tell their own made up stories which have nothing but passing nods to Tolkien's actual writings its a waste of time and the license.
They would be better off making up their own setting to tell their own stories in and not ruining the good name of Tolkien with this.
A point making TH or LotR's as tv I can see, neither have ever been done well or faithfully- a point to this young Aragorn nonsense beyond a base money grab I cant see, and no good will come of it, mark my words! }}}

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:08 pm

David H wrote: I'm still in the fog.

I see what you did there too. Suspect

by halfwise Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:18 pm

I still don't. scratch

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:34 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:That depends on what you view the purpose of the movie to be- for me the purpose of adapting a book to film is to tell the books story and convey the books characters as accurately as possible in the new medium- the entire Aragorn/Parth Galen scenes fundamentally fail to do this, and present us with an opposite case of what actually happens. It does not convey the same tone, feel, meaning or purpose of the original book it is supposedly adapting. Therefore it rubbish on the terms of being a movie adaptation of those scenes.

It's perfectly fair to call the scene (or the films) rubbish if fidelity to the book is the primary or only standard by which you wish to judge them, but if you are going to make statements about whether the filmmakers did or did not think something through, then I think it is necessary to judge the films on the basis of what the filmmakers were actually trying to do. But as I said in my previous post, I think there are plenty of points in the films where things don't really come together in a sensible fashion even on the movies' own terms. I just don't think this scene is an especially egregious example.

In the film he rejects the Ring and sends Frodo on his way before fighitng off a legion of orcs on his own.
But in the scenario they are in it would have made much more sense for Aragorn not to play the hero and take on every orc by himself but to grab Frodo and run back to their camp where he could defend the situation much better with the others at his back.
Instead we get the scene between Aragorn and Frodo because its the end of a film and they want a big emotional scene between those two, and we get Aragorn be the hero fighting hordes of orcs because its the end of the film and they need a big fight.
Those scenes exist as they do mainly to fulfill the 'end of a film feel' criteria- they are not drawn for any narrative, character or sensibly motivated artistic reasons. And the fact they completely contradict the source material its supposed to be adapting is seen as a fine sacrifice for that end of film necessity.

Frodo informs Aragorn that the Ring has "taken" Boromir, and asks Aragorn "can you protect me from yourself?" Looking at this from the perspective of film!Aragorn's character as established over the course of Fellowship, we can surmise that this is not a question that he is 100% confident he can answer affirmatively. We know that he has anxiety over the fact that he is Isildur's heir and that Isildur failed to resist the temptation of the Ring (cf. his conversation with Arwen in front of the "shrine" to the shards of Narsil). Coupling this with film!Frodo's established fear of being around the rest of the Fellowship (cf. Galadriel's warning to him earlier in the film that "one by one, it [the Ring] will destroy them all", Aragorn has two options here. He can try to force Frodo to let him continue to accompany him even though both of them worry about whether Aragorn will be able to continue to resist temptation, or he can definitively reject the Ring and deny it any further opportunity to tempt him while also respecting Frodo's wishes. I might still question the wisdom of deliberately sending the Ring off with only one or two Hobbits to guard it, but the moment takes place at a clearly established and important place in the story arcs of both Frodo and Aragorn in the movies.

Also Gandalfs telling Aragon later not to regret his actions is stupid on it sown merits- as Aragorn shows absolutely no signs of regret save that one look you highlighted- its never mentioned again, its never vocalized at all in fact in the whole film, and he sends Frodo off with his blessing. The Gandalf line is not earned in the films and has no real meaning as the books showings of regret and self-doubt from Aragorn are completely absent bar your one single glance.

Again, the line can work in the film even when it's meaning is different than in the book. Gandalf telling film!Aragorn not to regret his actions does not automatically imply that film!Aragorn is consumed with doubt to the same extent as his book counterpart or that his doubt is over exactly the same issues.

They can make an entertaining ride of their own, if that is all the aim is then make their own fantasy world and characters and story- if they have no mind and no intention of using Tolkiens work as little more than a basic framework to hang all heir own invented stories and characters off then I dont see the point in it at all. There is no deeper merit to doing so, merely the desire to use Tolkien's name to spin gold for themselves.

I think Amazon's desire to make lots of money off of LOTR's established name recognition has been obvious since the possibility of this project was first reported.

by Eldorion Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:40 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:Perhaps it's more fan fiction? The only reference to Mithion that I can find in a brief period is a fanfic involving Legolas. They're always about Legolas...

halfwise wrote:I still don't.

Spoiler:

by Elthir Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:55 pm

And just for clarity, whoever wrote that tale with Legolas and Mithion, isn't me.

noro lim Elthir!