Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{He is a nutjob- now he is talking about declaring martial law and overriding the national laws on how that has to happen and for how long it can happen. His police are largely death squads they are largely just gunning down the drug dealers and users with no trials, no right of reply, just death. And they do it in brutal fashion- shooting people in front of their young children.


And there are vigilante groups doing it all too inspired by his own claims that he used to drive about his hometown looking for dealers to shoot.
There are so far at least 6000 dead from his 'crackdown' do you think they all deserved to lose their lives? }}}

[David H]

{{And there are vigilante groups doing it all too inspired by his own claims that he used to drive about his hometown looking for dealers to shoot.}}}

Worse than that, the Philippines has always had it's share of family/clan/regional tensions, and their politics have in the past been peppered with assassinations. Dutert has basically taken the lid off of extrajudicial killings. From what I hear many of the assassinations now have as much to do with vendetta and politics as with drugs.

[halfwise]

wow! Rodrigo Duterte. what is he like. that guy does what it says on the tin. I have a small sneaking admiration for his no quarter approach to drug criminals, Islamic terrorists and kidnappers. Basically its, I am coming to get you and I am going to blast you to smithereens.

He's taking it one step beyond the US policy of no ransom for kidnappers when he says they should be bombed at will with kidnap victims as collateral damage.  Since I agree with our no ransom policy, I find myself in a cold-blooded logical way agreeing with his policy as a way to stop kidnapping, but: ye Gods!

I'm not up on the Philipines (despite having a friend posted there for a couple years), but if it's truly in bad shape sometimes a complete bastard is needed to clean things up.  Such bastards often end up in prison for the carnage (look at Peru) but they get results.  This is somewhat the reasoning behind Trump's election, I have to say.  So far we've just seen talk, curious to see what action looks like.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{I have a couple of Filipino friends and they are depressingly all for this guy- cant get enough of him and seem to excuse his actions at every turn. Having said that the two I know are both from the wealthy parts of Manilla and I suspect that plays a large part in it}}}.

[Eldorion]

On top of the fact that extrajudicial killings are wrong and that many of the killings appear to be due to unrelated vendettas, Duterte is not merely targeting drug traffickers but drug addicts as well. Hundreds of thousands of addicts turned themselves in shortly after Duterte's election in the hope that this would spare their lives, but most of them were released relatively quickly because there was not enough room in prison for everyone, even with extreme levels of overcrowding. But many of those who turned themselves in have subsequently been killed.

The NYT had a really powerful photo essay on this a while back (NSFW: pictures of corpses).

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/07/world/asia/rodrigo-duterte-philippines-drugs-killings.html

[Eldorion]

Crediting Duterte for fighting "kidnappers" is kinda weird too considering that his death squads are the ones doing a lot of the kidnapping and that their tactics come straight from the drug cartel playbook, such as the duct tape around the head method, as seen in the Mexican Drug War.

Graphic:

Cartels do the whole "leave a sign describing the victim's alleged misdeeds" thing too but I'm not gonna post any of the pictures of that that I've seen since they're even more graphic.

[halfwise]

I'm not saying I like his methods, just that he may be effective...at a significant price. Alberto Fujimori defeated the Shining Path and returned Peru to economic stability, but was convicted for crimes against humanity and imprisoned.

But Fujimori looks like a dilletante next to this guy. I don't doubt he will end badly, the people of the Philipines will have atrocities inflicted upon them, but the country may be transformed.

Guiliani transformed New York City, but was more or less run out of politics on a rail. Just seems to be the way things work.

Columbia may be the exception to the rule. Miracles are happening there, and it's not out of place to call the people performing them saints. Such transformations happen once a century.

[Mrs Figg]

wow! Rodrigo Duterte. what is he like. that guy does what it says on the tin. I have a small sneaking admiration for his no quarter approach to drug criminals, Islamic terrorists and kidnappers. Basically its, I am coming to get you and I am going to blast you to smithereens.

He's taking it one step beyond the US policy of no ransom for kidnappers when he says they should be bombed at will with kidnap victims as collateral damage.  Since I agree with our no ransom policy, I find myself in a cold-blooded logical way agreeing with his policy as a way to stop kidnapping, but: ye Gods!

I'm not up on the Philipines (despite having a friend posted there for a couple years), but if it's truly in bad shape sometimes a complete bastard is needed to clean things up.  Such bastards often end up in prison for the carnage (look at Peru) but they get results.  This is somewhat the reasoning behind Trump's election, I have to say.  So far we've just seen talk, curious to see what action looks like.

I have to agree with you. the kidnappers held two Canadian men for ransom then beheaded them. I saw the look on those two mens faces and if I was their relative I would bomb the shit out of those evil bastards who did it to them. Duterte is also going to give contraception to people to cut poverty, this in a very Catholic country. So if he stops crime and stops poverty he may need to be a bastard to get results.

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{PM May on Andrew Marr today failing miserably to answer the question did she know about the trident test failure before the commons vote and did she conceal the fact from Parliament}}



{{Not only if that had been for real would we have missed our target we'd have nuked an ally too! }}}

[Mrs Figg]

Mimmie gets TOLD   love this guy.

[azriel]

Oh yeah hes good ! I haven't heard of him before, but there again I don't watch TV, I hardly listen to the radio, I youtube only now & again, Ive cut myself orrrrf from the media really to save my sanity. I lied, I watch TV for 2 or 3 things, then it goes off. My nose is buried on the internet, or I'm doing "arty farty" stuff, or taking the dog out, or feeding the cats for the hundredth time in one morning.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Israel is expanding settlements again!

'Israel's parliament has passed a controversial law retroactively legalising about 4,000 homes built on settlements in the occupied West Bank.
The law passed by 60 votes to 52.
It states that the original Palestinian landowners will be compensated with money or alternative land.'

That will presumably be the usual sort of replacement land they give- a patch of unfarmable fuck all with no access to a water supply cordoned behind a fucking wall

'Emboldened by the new US administration, Israel has undertaken a series of pro-settlement moves in recent weeks, including the approval of thousands of homes.'

One has to assume Netanyu didn't do this without a behind the scenes nod and wink.
It is good to see however there are those in the Parliament willing to speak out.

'The attorney general, Avichai Mandelblit, called the bill unconstitutional and said he would not defend it in the supreme court.'

Mind you he is up against fuckwit zealots like this clown.

'Cabinet minister Ofir Akunis said during a debate ahead of the vote: "We are voting tonight on the connection between the Jewish people and its land. This whole land is ours. All of it."'

'Palestinians condemned the law.
"This is an escalation that would only lead to more instability and chaos," said Nabil Abu Rudeineh, a spokesman for Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas.
He added: "It is unacceptable. It is denounced and the international community should act immediately,"

The UN Middle East envoy, Nickolay Mladenov, called on Israeli MPs to vote against the law, saying it would "greatly diminish the prospects for Arab-Israeli peace".

Bet you all that happens is that Israel steals more land and displaces more Palenstians then blames them and labels them terrorists when they uprise against the injustices}}

[halfwise]

that's the M.O.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{Plato and Trump from the BBC Newsnight}}

[halfwise]

What's shocking to me is how well Plato has described our current state of democracy. We think that our open, relativist society is something new, but obviously Plato had examples of what looks like modern society even back then (men and women interchangeable, even animals have rights...). I find that simply astounding. And the description of Trump as a certain type is incredible as well. I'd love to know what he modelled these descriptions on.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{I am not sure he did have concrete examples f his day to use so much as he was just, brilliantly, extrapolating out the likely outcome of a democracy that lasts a long time from the starting point democracy = equality and freedoms.
I cant think offhand of many examples of early known cultures where men and women were interchangeable or where animals, outside of those deemed sacred in some fashion, have rights.
Though the earliest cities in Summeria appear to show no differentiation between classes, or to have a central building of authority. Maybe that stretched to differences between the sexes too - certainly the early cities had some powerful females in both the religious fields and political.
So much early texts have been lost its hard to know how far back knowledge went in Plato's day or what some of the famous and sadly lost libraries actually contained. Maybe Plato knew of examples that simply not survived in to the archeological records.}}}

[David H]

 I'd love to know what he modelled these descriptions on.

Small towns and villages are the petri dishes of political science, then and now.  There's nothing in Plato's Republic that can't still be seen today in its infant form in your local town council, school board or PTA.

[halfwise]

I'm sure there's also small city-states that existed back then that are lost to the mists of time. A small town may show some tendencies, but not sure if we can get to the level of 'dictator'. Then again, some neighborhood and PTA boards....

[Mrs Figg]

holy shit Plato.

[halfwise]

I have admit that one passage has really elevated my opinion of him. Shows how many of us so-called educated types have actually read The Republic, that it can still catch us by surprise.

[Pettytyrant101]

"Too much freedom seems to change into nothing but too much slavery."- Plato

"Freedom is Slavery!"- Party slogan, 1984, George Orwell.

[David H]

 A small town may show some tendencies, but not sure if we can get to the level of 'dictator'.  

{{ You've clearly never served in local govenment! }}
{{ }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{{ Not much to say about yesterdays events in London save that my thoughts are with all those suffering at this time as a result of it. Another pointless act made in the name of an imaginary superbeing. Humanity really needs to grow up fast.

And to those blaming Muslims, Islam, calling for bans ect the best response to those I have seen was this tweet- }}

[Lancebloke]

Not much you can say really.

On the Muslim front... while we should not be generalizing and blaming Muslims as a whole I think we should also not shy away from the fact that this does represent the beliefs of a lot of people and something needs to happen to change that.

I don't know how, just that the 'well it isn't us' mentality also doesn't help.