Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[halfwise]

It takes time to build structures within a culture.  That's why Bremer's deBaathesation was probably the worst of the 3 to blame.

Oddly enough, those who go to third world countries as Peace Corps volunteers often come back with more conservative ideals than they started with.   You come to realize the value of existing structures is as important as any philosophy behind them.  Given the choice between preserving an existing institution and replacing it with a better one, you are often better off preserving the existing one.  Tweak it slowly, don't tear it down.

[Pettytyrant101]

What I dont understand is how Saudia Arabia are not getting a mention in all this- they are the source of most of these ideologies. They are not only tolerated my members of the ruling elite, but unofficially endorsed by them.
Most of the 9/11 bombers are Saudi- most of Al-Qaeda command structure was Saudi, they encouraged thousands of young men to go off to fight in Afghanistan against the Russians.
And we know there human rights record- of the worst sort.

Yet nothing. I've not heard Saudi mentioned worse in all this- and if we don't do something about Saudi it doesn't matter where else we beat back the terrorists they will have somewhere to regroup and regrow every time.

Why are we so afraid of Saudi we wont even mention their name when they are up to their necks in blood on this?

[halfwise]

For the last couple of generations it's been due to a little word that starts with 'o' and ends with 'l'. But as that's become less predominant recently, I think it largely comes down to a personal charm offensive. The Saudi family can charm the socks off anyone in person. I wouldn't underestimate this power. I remember Barbara Walters melting into a puddle of goo at a few words from King Fahd. I think they do this to all world leaders.

[David H]

If we're looking for long-term solutions, it's unavoidable that the players who are most to blame for the current conditions are the ones who are most necessary to have at the table. They Saudi's definitely need to buy in to any plans in the region or it just plain ain't gonna work. Personally I'd love to see Middle Eastern regional defense move from dozens of armies and independent militias to some form of regional collective defense similar to NATO. Then you don't have all these little militias looking to fight each other to justify their existences, not unlike Europe of a couple centuries ago.

[Mrs Figg]

it is odd that one of the most repressive regimes on earth gets treated with kid gloves, but then the super rich always get preferential treatment. If all they had was camels and sand they would be pariahs.

[Lancebloke]

I think the inevitable move away from an oil based economy will change a lot of things... Saudi being one of them. Not only will they not have oil we want, but no money to be buying expensive military assets of their own. Unfortunately that is going to take a while though... until then we need oil to fuel the tanks and planes!

[Mrs Figg]

yeah just when they allow women to drive, they wont be able to afford cars. typical.

[Lancebloke]

Probably for the best then.

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

Nice to see Chancellor Osbourne steadfast in his resolve to cut department budgets, services, increase food bank use, put further pressure on the NHS by cutting vital services to the vulnerable. Oh and a lovely statistic today- there are now more people in poverty between the ages of 24-30 than there are pensioners in poverty.
Which is strange. It almost looks like the fact pensions have been ring-fenced under the Tories since the coalition, and had no cuts at all, and the people getting poorer have had loads of cuts, than in fact giving people money a little extra money does keep them out of poverty! What a shocking revelation!

Odd though that just yesterday the Government found nearly 50 billion, thats more than 4 times the budget cuts, for new weaponry! Hurrah! I feel so much safer now......


Its hard when this happens not to see Orwells words in 1984, that War is not about conquest any longer, its just a psychologically acceptable way of blowing up, disintegrating and rendering useless massive amounts of wealth and expending massive amounts of man hours.
That otherwise would have to spend upon the people. Who in turn would become healthier, better educated and with more leisure time to think about things and much less stress and pressure. And they would quickly realise they didn't need a ruling class at all.
So best we just tie up all that wealth and time in something we can then just blow up or decommission and replace with an even more expensive version in twenty years time.

[Mrs Figg]

Osbourne or Duncan Smith. its a toss up who is the biggest sociopathic tosser.

[Mrs Figg]

talking of sociopathic tossers. Osbourne has done a massive U turn on tax credits. brilliant news for families in the UK. that must have been a huge weight of worry off their shoulders. Now all I need is for the truth about Duncan Smith as a lying cheating incompetent twat and for him to resign in disgrace and I would be very satisfied.

[azriel]

Hear hear Figgles

[Pettytyrant101]

I wouldn't be so quick to praise Osbourne- he's a devious bastard.
He hasn't u-turned at all, he has deferred. The tax credit cuts go ahead, they just wont roll out until 2020 buried in the small print as part of the Universal Credit package.
The argument being by that time the increase in the minimum wage, plus growth in the economy will cover any losses (the problem being every financial analyst said it won't and Osbourne hasn't got a finincial prediction on growth right yet- remember at the start he told us we would be back in the black by now and austerity would be over- instead we are being told we need another 5 years of it with even greater cuts than in the first 5- the worst is yet to come).

He has also made massive cuts to the social funding for local councils.
This puts jobs like mine in danger- private care homes rely on a steady turn over of residents sent to us by local authority.
These are vulnerable elderly who cannot look after themselves but are not actually ill. If they are not given to places like us who can give them the care they require they are left languishing in hospitals- taking up NHS beds, time and resources, where they don't get the care or freedoms they would in a home and cost more in the long run than putting them in homes as well as taking up beds needed for genuinely ill folk- which is madness.
Yet Osbourne has cut the money available to provide the care.

Where I work currently has at least 3 residents who are there via the local authority. We need those clients to stay afloat and maintain staff levels. Especially with the increase in wage that's coming when the minimum rises.

[David H]

He has also made massive cuts to the social funding for local councils.

That's terrible! The local level is where the money can do the most good for the least cost. Do you have numbers on the percentage cut and when it takes effect?

[Mrs Figg]

I wouldn't be so quick to praise Osbourne- he's a devious bastard.
He hasn't u-turned at all, he has deferred. The tax credit cuts go ahead, they just wont roll out until 2020 buried in the small print as part of the Universal Credit package.
The argument being by that time the increase in the minimum wage, plus growth in the economy will cover any losses (the problem being every financial analyst said it won't and Osbourne hasn't got a finincial prediction on growth right yet- remember at the start he told us we would be back in the black by now and austerity would be over- instead we are being told we need another 5 years of it with even greater cuts than in the first 5- the worst is yet to come).

He has also made massive cuts to the social funding for local councils.
This puts jobs like mine in danger- private care homes rely on a steady turn over of residents sent to us by local authority.
These are vulnerable elderly who cannot look after themselves but are not actually ill. If they are not given to places like us who can give them the care they require they are left languishing in hospitals- taking up NHS beds, time and resources, where they don't get the care or freedoms they would in a home and cost more in the long run than putting them in homes as well as taking up beds needed for genuinely ill folk- which is madness.
Yet Osbourne has cut the money available to provide the care.

Where I work currently has at least 3 residents who are there via the local authority. We need those clients to stay afloat and maintain staff levels. Especially with the increase in wage that's coming when the minimum rises.

I don't think calling him a sociopathic tosser is exactly praise.

[Pettytyrant101]

The voting is under way in the House of Commons after a 10 hour debate (with a lot of rhetoric and less substance) on if we go to war, and join in the bombing frenzy in Syria!

As far as I can tell Camerons plan with his 70,000 local fighters is based mainly on wishful thinking.

[Pettytyrant101]

Ayes - 397

Noes - 223

Majority - 174

ITS WAR!!!! I am sure us chucking a few more bombs in there will help greatly- cant wait to see the fall off in refugee numbers (mainly because the civilians left will all be dead soon enough) and I really cant wait for Camerons mysterious ground troops force of 70,000 local fighters to emerge and win the day for us!
Time will tell.

[Bluebottle]

He did use to work in PR.

[Mrs Figg]

An international coalition of over 30 countries and at least a dozen more rebel and terror factions have been unable to prevent the rapid growth of ISIS.
The terror group has expanded its territory, recruited 'thousands' of new foreign fighters and brought new jihadi organisations under its wing since an international 'task force' to 'eliminate' ISIS in October 2014.
At least 42 nations have either carried out airstrikes on ISIS, trained troops and Middle-Eastern tribesman to do battle against it or given weapons to those who are.
Meanwhile, at least a dozen rival Islamist groups are waging bloody war with ISIS on the ground - and for the hearts and minds of Muslims online.
ISIS commands 31,000 loyal fighters according to the United States - up from 16,000 last Autumn - while Kurdish forces put that number at closer to 200,000. And around eight million are thought to live under its barbaric rule.
This inspired more than 60 nations to commit to the Global Coalition to Counter ISIS which was formed to 'eliminate' ISIS, even though some of these - including Austria, Sweden and Ireland - are simply providing humanitarian support to the millions made homeless by the insurgents.
As part of Operation Inherent Resolve, the US-led coalition whose purpose is to eliminate ISIS, 13 different countries have executed airstrikes on Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria.
The United States and five of its Arab allies - Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates - launched the intense campaign of airstrikes and cruise-missile attacks against ISIS in September 2014.
Since then, America has been responsible for around 60 per cent of the 16,000 bombings on Iraq and Syria carried out since.

So as you can see there are over 40 countries a lot of them Arabs who have either bombed or are fighting IS on the ground. Why on earth would we refuse to join in the fight against fascists? We are all at risk and we all have to fight. this is WWIII if you hadn't noticed, and we either fight or die.

[David H]

One ironic thing about all this is that the what drives the enthusiasm of the extremists is some ancient prophecies not in the Koran about a final battle at the End of Days, rather like the Book of Revelations in the Bible.  According to prophesy, all the enemies of Islam will unite against one great hero and be vanquished in a final battle. The hero will then unite all the chosen people and rule over a utopian Caliphate, preparing the world for the Second Coming, or some such thing.

What's ironic is that the more nations who join in the coalition against IS, the more we look like the Forces of Darkness in the prophesies and the more disillusioned people are likely to say, "Damn! If this really is the Final Conflict, I'm on the wrong side!"

I saw an article last week that said that some of the prophecies said there would be 80 armies united against the good guys in the final conflict, and that by some counts they only had 50 so far, so some IS groups were trying to get 30 more countries to to join in the battle against IS. How do you win something like this, especially if we don't understand it?

It's just like all the otherwise-normal people who were freaking out in the run-up to Y2K 15 years ago...

[Mrs Figg]

the problem with that prophecy is we are NOT fighting Islam. this has got bugger all to do with Islam.

[David H]

It doesn't have much to do with Islam for us, but it does to many of the fighters in IS. They see the majority of Muslims as hypocrites and heretics, and themselves as the keepers of the true flame. The rest are just adventurers.
It's the story of the Crusades all over again in reverse. They never reflected the majority of Christians in Europe; mostly just the nut cases and people who wanted to make names for themselves like Richard...)

Edit: (and to be fair, I think there are a certain percentage of racist people on both sides right now).

[Eldorion]

Always a New Year's tradition for me: Charlie Brooker's year in review (2015 Wipe):

[Mrs Figg]

still cant believe what happened in Cologne on new year eve. the Germans need to get a grip on this before its too late.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046