Re: Doctor Who [10]

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:08 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I don't think she is pinning for his approval- she certainly isn't when she is chucking the TARDIS keys into the lava.

That has got to be the single most selfish and spoiled brattish thing I have ever seen a companion do. She in effect was prepared to destroy the Doctors life to get her own way. That's not what a true friend would do, but she is a weak character so she felt it necessary to do something so dramatic. She was desperate to save Danny and that is normal, what isn't normal is the complete lack of trust or respect she has for the Doctor. She pines for his approval like an emotionally stunted kid rather than a woman with strength of character. If the Doctor had refused someone like Donna she wouldn't have tried to get him fried, she would have told him to fuck off because he has been known to bend the rules a thousand times before.

Or at end of Listen when she orders him to leave where they are never try to find out where they have been. Or when she calls him out in Mummy for making her lie for him, or when she finally loses it with him at the end of Kill the Moon.

when she finally loses it being the operative word

The only time she directly asks for his approval is in Flatline at the end because her ego is getting the better of her, making her feel like she has triumphed even though people are dead-

she is not that different to Courtney

Clara mirrors the Doctor in series 8 and ego getting the better of him is one of his major flaws. That's why he tells her in reply to her demanding he admit she made a good Doctor, that she was an exceptional Doctor, but goodness had nothing to do with it.
I dont think she is seeking his approval, she is seeking what she gave him, acceptance, as an equal being who is to be considered-

I think she demands approval because she has in effect split herself into a thousand pieces to save him, I call that emotional blackmail. I also hate the way she flips between hating him and saying she is done with it, and then changing her mind with a hysterical laugh. Its like the Doctor is her drug and she cant go cold turkey

by malickfan Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:53 pm

Interesting, and possibly very exciting if minor news from Big Finish.

They have recently begun adapting some of the Doctor Who books from the 1990's into full cast audio dramas, apparently once they are adapted into an audio Big Finish counts them as part of the primary canon/continuity of their other releases i.e. a Fourth Doctor book adapted into audio counts as canon in the same timeline as a normal release does, as Big Finish is licensed by the BBC.

Anyway, in the recently released adaption of 'Damaged Goods' (A Virgin New Adventure novel starring the 7th Doctor written by Rusell T Davies) Torchwood and The Time War are apparently directly referred to, for the first time in Big Finish's history, the possible implications being Torchwood and Time War audios could happen some day, and that Big Finish can feasibly be said to be in the same 'universe' as the TV show.

I haven't listened to this audio so I can't describe exactly what is said, but given how excited some of the users are getting on the forum and the recent UNIT and Torchwood announcements (not to mention the fact neither of these references were in Davies original book) this could bode well for the future...or it could simply be a fun in joke at Russell Davies expense...

Hmm...

Suspect

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:56 pm

She in effect was prepared to destroy the Doctors life to get her own way. That's not what a true friend would do, but she is a weak character so she felt it necessary to do something so dramatic.- Figg

I utterly disagree with that analysis.
Clara is picking up on and adding the Doctor's most effective and worst traits to her own- the mix, someone who is manipulative, someone who lies, and someone who is a control freak.
That scene harps on the theme of control, it plays on the previous set up of the line "Do as you are told!" which both have said to the other at one point in the series.
Clara does exactly what the Doctor would do- she is willing to go as far as it takes to get the job done.
Just as the Doctor is in Mummy when he says he would just have kept going, even as the bodies piled up, until he had won.

DOCTOR: Throw the key.
CLARA: I know what you're doing. You're trying to take control.
DOCTOR: I am in control. Throw away the key. Do as you are told.
CLARA: No!
DOCTOR: Well, either you do as you're told or stop threatening me. There really isn't a third option here.
CLARA: Do you know what, Doctor? When it comes to taking control, you really are out of your depth.
(She throws all the remaining keys bar one into the lava.)
CLARA: One last chance. And I don't care about the rules, I don't give a damn about paradoxes. Save Danny. Bring him back or I swear you will never step inside your Tardis again.
DOCTOR: No.
CLARA: Do as you are told.
DOCTOR: No.
CLARA: Say it again so I know you mean it.
DOCTOR: No!
CLARA: I'm not kidding, Doctor.
DOCTOR: Neither am I.
CLARA: I will do it!
DOCTOR: Clara, my Clara, I don't think you will!
(The last key goes into the lava.)

'she would have told him to fuck off because he has been known to bend the rules a thousand times before.'

Clara does this (without the swearing) but the scene isn't about if he can really do it or not, it's about him seeing how far she is willing to go, if its as far as he would, and so seeing himself in reflection. And in doing that he is coming to understand who he is again and to answering the big question of the series, 'Am I a good man?'
Vastra sets that up in the opening episode with the stuff about acceptance and describing him as being 'Lost in the ruins of himself.'

CLARA: And fix it. Change it. Change what happened. Save him. Bring him back.
(She holds up another key and we all remember what happened in Father's Day.)
DOCTOR: No.
(She throws the key away.)
CLARA: Five left. Every time you say no to me, I will throw another key down there. Do we understand each other?
DOCTOR: Well, I understand you. Let's not get carried away.
CLARA: Time can be rewritten.
DOCTOR: With precision. With great care. And not today. But you know that of course, otherwise you wouldn't be threatening me.
CLARA: Did you just say no?
DOCTOR: If I change the events that brought you here, you will never come here and ask me to change those events. Paradox loop. The timeline disintegrates. Your timeline. And yes!
CLARA: Yes?
DOCTOR: Yes. I did just say no. Throw away the key.
CLARA: I have seen you change time, I have seen you break any rule you want.
DOCTOR: I know when I can, I know when I can't. Throw the key.

'when she finally loses it being the operative word'

It was just good writing to build up so such a moment across the episode, each episode she gets pushed that bit more. Itt cant just come out the blue. And its been set up since the very first episode.

'she is not that different to Courtney'

She is completely different from Courtney- Courtney in Kill the Moon does all the right thing and she is bluntly honest.

'I think she demands approval because she has in effect split herself into a thousand pieces to save him'

I don't think that has anything to do with it, she doesn't remember all those lives.
'I also hate the way she flips between hating him and saying she is done with it, and then changing her mind with a hysterical laugh. Its like the Doctor is her drug and she cant go cold turkey'

The heme of the Doctor being addicted to how he lives his life is one of the aspects of his personality being explored in the series. It is reflected back at him in Clara's growing addiction to the same life. To the point she lies to loved ones in order to continue having it.

CLARA: Do you love it?
DOCTOR: Love what?
CLARA: I know it's scary and difficult, but do you love being the man making the impossible choice?
DOCTOR: Why would I?
CLARA: Because it's what you do, all day, every day.
DOCTOR: It's my life.
CLARA: Doesn't have to be. Is it like
DOCTOR: Like what?
CLARA: An addiction?
DOCTOR: You can't really tell if something's an addiction till you try and give it up.
CLARA: And you never have.
DOCTOR: Let me know how it goes.

Liying of course is another central aspect being explored, both how the Doctor lies, why he lies, and what the danger of lying is, which is that you start lying with good intentions and end up lying jut because you can.

DOCTOR: Excellent lying, Doctor Oswald.
CLARA: Yeah? Well, thought it was pretty weak myself
DOCTOR: I meant to me. You told me that Danny was okay with you being back on board the Tardis.
CLARA: Well, he is.
DOCTOR: Yeah, because he doesn't know anything about it.
CLARA: Doctor
DOCTOR: Congratulations. Lying is a vital survival skill.
CLARA: Well, there you go.
DOCTOR: And a terrible habit.

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:32 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:She in effect was prepared to destroy the Doctors life to get her own way. That's not what a true friend would do, but she is a weak character so she felt it necessary to do something so dramatic.- Figg

I utterly disagree with that analysis.
Clara is picking up on and adding the Doctor's most effective and worst traits to her own- the mix, someone who is manipulative, someone who lies, and someone who is a control freak.

Only a spineless person with no character would do this, certainly not an adult

That scene harps on the theme of control, it plays on the previous set up of the line "Do as you are told!" which both have said to the other at one point in the series.
Clara does exactly what the Doctor would do- she is willing to go as far as it takes to get the job done.

her 'job' is purely selfish, the Doctor generally is more altruistic.

Just as the Doctor is in Mummy when he says he would just have kept going, even as the bodies piled up, until he had won.

DOCTOR: Throw the key.
CLARA: I know what you're doing. You're trying to take control.
DOCTOR: I am in control. Throw away the key. Do as you are told.
CLARA: No!
DOCTOR: Well, either you do as you're told or stop threatening me. There really isn't a third option here.
CLARA: Do you know what, Doctor? When it comes to taking control, you really are out of your depth.
(She throws all the remaining keys bar one into the lava.)
CLARA: One last chance. And I don't care about the rules, I don't give a damn about paradoxes. Save Danny. Bring him back or I swear you will never step inside your Tardis again.
DOCTOR: No.
CLARA: Do as you are told.
DOCTOR: No.
CLARA: Say it again so I know you mean it.
DOCTOR: No!
CLARA: I'm not kidding, Doctor.
DOCTOR: Neither am I.
CLARA: I will do it!
DOCTOR: Clara, my Clara, I don't think you will!
(The last key goes into the lava.)

'she would have told him to fuck off because he has been known to bend the rules a thousand times before.'

Clara does this (without the swearing) but the scene isn't about if he can really do it or not, it's about him seeing how far she is willing to go, if its as far as he would, and so seeing himself in reflection. And in doing that he is coming to understand who he is again and to answering the big question of the series, 'Am I a good man?'

meaningless. we all know he is a good man, so does he. after a 1000 years you shouldn't be asking those questions

Vastra sets that up in the opening episode with the stuff about acceptance and describing him as being 'Lost in the ruins of himself.'

CLARA: And fix it. Change it. Change what happened. Save him. Bring him back.
(She holds up another key and we all remember what happened in Father's Day.)
DOCTOR: No.
(She throws the key away.)
CLARA: Five left. Every time you say no to me, I will throw another key down there. Do we understand each other?
DOCTOR: Well, I understand you. Let's not get carried away.
CLARA: Time can be rewritten.
DOCTOR: With precision. With great care. And not today. But you know that of course, otherwise you wouldn't be threatening me.
CLARA: Did you just say no?
DOCTOR: If I change the events that brought you here, you will never come here and ask me to change those events. Paradox loop. The timeline disintegrates. Your timeline. And yes!
CLARA: Yes?
DOCTOR: Yes. I did just say no. Throw away the key.
CLARA: I have seen you change time, I have seen you break any rule you want.
DOCTOR: I know when I can, I know when I can't. Throw the key.

'when she finally loses it being the operative word'

It was just good writing to build up so such a moment across the episode, each episode she gets pushed that bit more. Itt cant just come out the blue. And its been set up since the very first episode.

or expedient, didn't Moffat want a new companion but Jenna begged him to let her stay?

'she is not that different to Courtney'

She is completely different from Courtney- Courtney in Kill the Moon does all the right thing and she is bluntly honest.

so not honest then

'I think she demands approval because she has in effect split herself into a thousand pieces to save him'

I don't think that has anything to do with it, she doesn't remember all those lives.

she knows it happened though

'I also hate the way she flips between hating him and saying she is done with it, and then changing her mind with a hysterical laugh. Its like the Doctor is her drug and she cant go cold turkey'

The heme of the Doctor being addicted to how he lives his life is one of the aspects of his personality being explored in the series. It is reflected back at him in Clara's growing addiction to the same life. To the point she lies to loved ones in order to continue having it.

its not an addiction, its who he is, he has no choice but to be himself, he is not a wannabe. she is just a fangirl.

CLARA: Do you love it?
DOCTOR: Love what?
CLARA: I know it's scary and difficult, but do you love being the man making the impossible choice?
DOCTOR: Why would I?
CLARA: Because it's what you do, all day, every day.
DOCTOR: It's my life.
CLARA: Doesn't have to be. Is it like
DOCTOR: Like what?
CLARA: An addiction?
DOCTOR: You can't really tell if something's an addiction till you try and give it up.
CLARA: And you never have.
DOCTOR: Let me know how it goes.

Liying of course is another central aspect being explored, both how the Doctor lies, why he lies, and what the danger of lying is, which is that you start lying with good intentions and end up lying jut because you can.

lies. what a great role model for kids.

DOCTOR: Excellent lying, Doctor Oswald.
CLARA: Yeah? Well, thought it was pretty weak myself
DOCTOR: I meant to me. You told me that Danny was okay with you being back on board the Tardis.
CLARA: Well, he is.
DOCTOR: Yeah, because he doesn't know anything about it.
CLARA: Doctor
DOCTOR: Congratulations. Lying is a vital survival skill.
CLARA: Well, there you go.
DOCTOR: And a terrible habit.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:04 pm

'Only a spineless person with no character would do this, certainly not an adult'......her 'job' is purely selfish, the Doctor generally is more altruistic.'- Figg

The Doctor would do it. He has acted extremely selfishly in the past.

we all know he is a good man, so does he. after a 1000 years you shouldn't be asking those questions

No he doesn't. And with good reason. After the events of the 50th he has had to reincorporate the memories and experiences of the War Doctor back into his personality. Memories so traumatic he had denied their existence to himself ever since. When he saw and did things that meant he know longer felt that he could call himself the Doctor.
He then finished his days as 11 spending 1000 years defending a planet against a siege.
Both times he was forced by circumstances into the role of soldier. The opposite of a healer.
Which is why 12 doesn't know any more if what he does is really making things better or worse, or if the reasons he does them are really good ones at all.

'didn't Moffat want a new companion but Jenna begged him to let her stay?'

No. She was scheduled to leave in the xmas episode, but she decided to saty. But Moffat had already written it with two endings, one where she did and one where she didn't, and says he was delighted she chose to stay as he much preferred the ending he had written where she stayed out the two.

'so not honest then'

No Clara is increasingly less honest, not about her motivations, but in how she goes about implementing them. She uses manipulations, misdirection, and lying to achieve her goal. All of which she has picked up from interacting with 11 and 12.

'I hate him. He's overbearing, he's manipulative, he likes to think that he's very clever. I hate him!'

This is again exploring the them of the series, just what makes the Doctor , the Doctor?

'she knows it happened though'

We don't know that, in the 50th she says she remembers 10, 'sort of.'
I imagine its something similar to Rory and his time as Roman, he doesn't remember most of the time and then its like a trapdoor opening in his mind and its all there. But Clara was fractured not once like Rory but unknown amount of times, so its probably even fuzzier.

'its not an addiction, its who he is, he has no choice but to be himself, he is not a wannabe. she is just a fangirl.'

But there is an element of addiction, as Clara says he doesn't have to live his life that way. So the question arises in the viewer- why does he do it?
But he doesn't do it to be the hero, thats what the Robin Hood episode is about, when he rescues the peasants and she kisses his cheek and thanks him, he realises he just did the sort of thing a hero does, but he did it with no thought to being one, he just couldn't see the suffering and do nothing. That is part of who he is.
Just as Clara throwing the TARDIS keys is part of who she is, showing how far she will go for someone she loves.
They mirror each other.

As to her being just a fangirl, I don't see how you get that, in every episode she is central. In Deep Breath she gets all the information form the Clockwork man event though at any point she could have called in the back-up, and she trusted the Doctor hadn't really let her down- and he hadn't.
In Dalek its her who sees the possibilities in the very existence of a single good Dalek when the Doctor cannot because he is blinded by his own prejudice and his own ego making assumptions.
In Listen she is the story, thats when we see more of her teacher and caring side, which was already evident in her looking after her friends children after their mother died, and Victorian nanny Clara. And she also imparts wisdom to the young Doctor whilst doing so in a way that shapes his outlook and is another mirror back at himself, and which becomes a part of what makes him the Doctor.
As Clara's words, "Fear makes companions of us all," are spoken again by the 1st Doctor to Barbara in the Cave of Skulls on their very first adventure as they await imminent sacrificing.

'lies. what a great role model for kids.'

It is. Its Who treating kids at its best- by being honest with them.

Look at what it says about lies across the series-
-that sometimes there is time for lying because lying in that moment leads to the better outcome in the long run.
-that you have to be careful however that you don't start lying out of habit. As that always leads to bad things happening- like parting form someone you care deeply from because each is lying to the other, even with the best of intentions.
-that sometimes, no matter your intentions, sometimes you have no choice but to lie, sometimes in life what you might face are only a choice of less bad choices, but you still have to choose.

Do I have a problem with that as an explanation of lying given to children in the context of an exciting family sci-fi show? Nope I think its excellent non-patronising writing.

by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:20 pm

mental gymnastics much

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:43 pm

None at all. Thats what the series was about. Shrugging

-that sometimes there is time for lying because lying in that moment leads to the better outcome in the long run.

First Evidence m'Lord- Flatline:

CLARA: Yeah, well, you might be glad he did. Those things come in here, that is our only way out. (sotto) I just hope I can keep them all alive.
DOCTOR: Ah, welcome to my world. So what's next, Doctor Clara?
CLARA: Lie to them.
DOCTOR: What?
CLARA: Lie to them. Give them hope. Tell them they're all going to be fine. Isn't that what you would do?
DOCTOR: In a manner of speaking. It's true that people with hope tend to run faster, whereas people who think they're doomed
CLARA: Dawdle. End up dead.
DOCTOR: So that's what I sound like.

-that you have to be careful however that you don't start lying out of habit. As that always leads to bad things happening- like parting form someone you care deeply from because each is lying to the other, even with the best of intentions.

evidence 2 and 3:

Flatline:

DOCTOR: Excellent lying, Doctor Oswald.
CLARA: Yeah? Well, thought it was pretty weak myself.
DOCTOR: I meant to me. You told me that Danny was okay with you being back on board the Tardis.
CLARA: Well, he is.
DOCTOR: Yeah, because he doesn't know anything about it.
CLARA: Doctor
DOCTOR : Congratulations. Lying is a vital survival skill.
CLARA: Well, there you go.
DOCTOR: And a terrible habit.

Last Christmas:

DOCTOR: You never told me he was dead. You said he made it back.
CLARA: Well, I lied. I lied, so you'd go home to Gallifrey instead of fussing about me.
DOCTOR: I never found Gallifrey. I lied, so you'd stay with Danny.

-that sometimes, no matter your intentions, sometimes you have no choice but to lie, sometimes in life what you might face are only a choice of less bad choices, but you still have to choose.

Evidence 4- Mummy on the Orient Express:

CLARA: You knew. You knew this was no relaxing break. You knew this was dangerous.
DOCTOR: I didn't know. I certainly hoped.
CLARA: Okay, this. You see, this. This is why I'm leaving you. This. Because you lied. You lied to me, again. And now you've made me lie. You've made me your accomplice.

.....

CLARA: So, when you lied to Maisie, when you made me lie to Maisie
DOCTOR: I couldn't risk Gus finding out my plan and stopping me.
CLARA: So you were pretending to be heartless.
DOCTOR: Would you like to think that about me? Would that make it easier? I didn't know if I could save her. I couldn't save Quell, I couldn't save Moorhouse. There was a good chance that she'd die too. At which point, I would have just moved onto the next, and the next, until I beat it. Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones. But you still have to choose.

Its all in the episodes.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:51 pm

I don't like it, I know the Doctor isn't a fluffy bunny but this lying business is a bit twisted and unhealthy. Its ok for adults but a bit irresponsible for a kids show.

by Forest Shepherd Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:58 pm

I finally got around to watching the Christmas Special last night. It was rather a mixed bag. On the one hand, I very much liked Nick Frost in the role of Santa Claus. (And what a perfect role for someone of that name!) He was likeable, had excellent comedic timing and, unlike his elfin helpers, did not exude a miasma of fan service in the form of "OH my the feels" and "selfies!" and the like.

Quick note: My sister just mentioned that the comedy of the episode, at least that which did not include Nick Frost, was reminiscent of Disney Channel kids shows. Clara's mimicking of the Doctor's line "No, wait, shut up!" was a bit rude she thought as well.

Anyway, where was I?
Yes, fan service. The other main offense was the My Little Pony mention. Normally this kind of thing would be just fine, it's a common-enough television show and product. However, the "Brony" subculture and corresponding hipster extravagances makes this little comment in the episode smell of an even worse sort of fan service vapidity. I wish I was not so cynical about this, but I cannot help but see these little additions as a soulless and self-satisfied commercialism.

It's even worse than when Tennant started using catchphrases too often, because the meme-worthy trends that the show is exploiting have not even originated in the show, but have been snagged from wider pop culture.

Well, anyway, the obvious inspirations for this episode are Alien and Inception.
I see some of Moffat's unique style in there as well, but the heavy borrowing of dramatic themes from the aforementioned films is less homage and more cheap imitation. At least for myself, there was very little possible surprise or twist to be had in this episode, as the obviousness of the "dream-within-a-dream" is elementary for anyone who has sat through the twisty bits of Inception.
I also didn't like the grisly description of what the Dream Crabs were doing to the skulls of their victims. I kept expecting the last wake-up to include a gush of blood and terrified screams as the Crabs pulled out of the gore-hole they had pierced through Clara and the Doctor's heads. I mean, this is Doctor Who, wherein there is no such thing as permanent injuries, but I wish they had simply allowed the crabs to eat their prey through brain-wave absorption or something.

Anyway, even with the Inception dream-state lift, it was still a very Moffatish episode. I've come to realize that Moffat has a great love for mind-bending plots that rely on false states of awareness. Take the chalkboard in this episode, when Clara is being called down to Christmas by dead-Danny. It was a visual representation of the thoughts going on inside in unconscious character's head as another character is yelling at them, trying to get through to them. It's good film-mastery, but can be over-used.

After thinking about it further, I would say that it is the defining aspect of Moffat's writing. The whole point of Dalek-Clara was that she was not aware of who or where she was.

Amy's Choice had this. In it Amy has to choose between two dream-realms, neither of which are real. We see it with Amy and her long-term pregnant-but-dreaming state throughout season 6.

It comes up in Silence in the Library when Donna is "saved" along with the other survivors, when "Doctor Moon" and the little girl are enacting their little dramas at the beginning of that episode.

It's a popular claim that Moffat's strength is the time-manipulation that he employs in his writing. This is probably true, but his affinity for mental-state manipulation is even more prevalent I believe. It's very uncertain stuff to watch. What is illusion and what is reality and questions of identity and continuity and causation are all ideas that can be easily expressed through the medium of film. Moffat understands this and uses that knowledge very well. However, he sometimes misses the mark, and in this episode with all it's fan service and borrowing from film classics I feel that he really dropped the ball.
I'm rather disappointed. Sad

P.S.
I read this to my sister, and her response was:
"That's a very kind of way saying that the episode sucked so much that it created its own black hole."

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:41 pm

his lying business is a bit twisted and unhealthy. Its ok for adults but a bit irresponsible for a kids show. - Figg

So you dont have a problem with Who tackling genocide- or RTD for years implying the Doctor himself was guilty of committing genocide- but you draw the line at telling lies? That doesnt make any sense to me.

'that the show is exploiting have not even originated in the show, but have been snagged from wider pop culture.'- Forest

RTD era was crammed with pop culture references. We even had futuristic versions of popular at the time tv shows- the Weakest Link with an android Anne Robinson (the cringe-worthy pun inducing Anne-droid) and even Trinny and Susannah who noone outside the UK probably even knew of.

'as the obviousness of the "dream-within-a-dream" is elementary for anyone who has sat through the twisty bits of Inception.'

Classic WHo does this all the time- many of the 4th Doctor classic era take direct inspiration from classic Horror films- Brain of Mobius for example.
Personally when I watched Inception I was thinking 'bloody hell they have just ripped of every page of Casteneda's Art of Dreaming.'
Inception also bears an uncanny resemblance to, of ll things, a Scrooge McDuck comic-

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/blinkuldhc/news/?a=21055

With such concepts it not who did it first, its where you saw or read it first- if you read Castenda first Inception seems to rip it off, if you saw Last Xmas first Inception seem to rip ideas off it ect- for many young Who viewers Last Xmas will be theit first encounter with this type of story telling. And Im sure it was very effective too.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:06 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:his lying business is a bit twisted and unhealthy. Its ok for adults but a bit irresponsible for a kids show. - Figg

So you dont have a problem with Who tackling genocide- or RTD for years implying the Doctor himself was guilty of committing genocide- but you draw the line at telling lies? That doesnt make any sense to me.

you seem to be missing the point. When Rose, Martha, Mickey and Donna became companions it resulted in them becoming better people. They became more confident, capable, brave, and the Doctor also gained humanity and humility, all positive things. Moffats companions do not become better people, they just suffer (as in the case of poor Amy and Rory) or become worse people. Clara has become a worse person, she now lies easier, is more manipulative, and is more of an egotist. Moffat jumped on the recent fashion for darker characters, its just a marketing ploy, but it means that being with the Doctor makes you a shit, and that is not much of a good message for kids watching the show.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:15 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
RTD era was crammed with pop culture references. We even had futuristic versions of popular at the time tv shows- the Weakest Link with an android Anne Robinson (the cringe-worthy pun inducing Anne-droid) and even Trinny and Susannah who noone outside the UK probably even knew of.
.

is this necessary

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:20 pm

Don't agree at all. Amy grow up, comes to accept who she is, who she loves and how she wants to live her life. The problem caused in her life by the Doctor crashing into when she is a child she resolves, off her own back and strengths of character.
Clara is brought to a point of realising the consequences of her actions- she loses Danny, she doesn't get him back,and she has to comes to terms and acceptance of that loss, and of her own part, particularly her lying to him, which played their part in events.
She takes on some of the Doctors traits, which are not themselves bad in themselves, its how you deploy them that determines the outcome. Thats why Missy gives him an army at the end- its not he doesn't have the character traits to do just what she says- take the army and go save everyone with it by force, in that she is right, they are alike, they will both go to extremes in the name of their causes- its about how he chooses to deploy what he naturally has, how he chooses to use it.
That's the point of series 8. At the end their lying to each other very nearly costs them their friendship and its only acceptance of their lying and being honest with one another which leads them to a place of mutual understanding. It about acceptance, both of others and of who you are.
By the end they understand and accept one another much more than at the beginning.

is this necessary- Figg

I didn't think so at the time I thought is was cringe-inducingly bad. But if Forest is going to accuse Moffat of fan service or of making pop culture references than it has to be acknowledged RTD was king of doing that in his era.
Hell whats the whole LINDA club thing if its not fan service- including a group of Doctor fans in the actual episodes.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:40 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Don't agree at all. Amy grow up, comes to accept who she is, who she loves and how she wants to live her life. The problem caused in her life by the Doctor crashing into when she is a child she resolves, off her own back and strengths of character.

no she doesn't though. she runs away from things mostly, including her husband to be. She is damaged goods from the word go, and she doesn't get any better, feistiness does not mean strength of character. She doesn't become a better person, she becomes a more damaged and tortured person. She doesn't exhibit one positive trait that she has learnt directly from becoming the Doctors assistant.

Clara is brought to a point of realising the consequences of her actions- she loses Danny, she doesn't get him back,and she has to comes to terms and acceptance of that loss, and of her own part, particularly her lying to him, which played their part in events.

Clara flim flams about wanting her cake and to eat it too. she wants adventure and she wants stability with Danny. She becomes a liar, and danny has to call her out on this many times. She becomes sneaky, deceitful, increasingly egotistical, and brittle. She is dismissive to the poor kid in Flatline, she is not nice at all.

She takes on some of the Doctors traits, which are not themselves bad in themselves, its how you deploy them that determines the outcome.

If she becomes a manipulative liar, that's a bad trait in anyones mental gymnasium.

Thats why Missy gives him an army at the end- its not he doesn't have the character traits to do just what she says- take the army and go save everyone with it by force, in that she is right, they are alike, they will both go to extremes in the name of their causes- its about how he chooses to deploy what he naturally has, how he chooses to use it.
That's the point of series 8. At the end their lying to each other very nearly costs them their friendship and its only acceptance of their lying and being honest with one another which leads them to a place of mutual understanding. It about acceptance, both of others and of who you are.
By the end they understand and accept one another much more than at the beginning.

is this necessary- Figg

I didn't think so at the time I thought is was cringe-inducingly bad. But if Forest is going to accuse Moffat of fan service or of making pop culture references than it has to be acknowledged RTD was king of doing that in his era.

Hell whats the whole LINDA club thing if its not fan service- including a group of Doctor fans in the actual episodes.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:46 pm

She doesn't exhibit one positive trait that she has learnt directly from becoming the Doctors assistant.- Figg

She goes from someone unable to face reality, or to accept a normal life, or who can settle down in any way, she cant even keep a job down for any length of time, to someone who chooses to live a normal ife raising a family. And she does through her interactions withthe Doctor, she grows in confidence and understanding throughout, from the girl who waited (ie never grew up) to the woman who grow up - Look at you, Pond, all grown up- The Doctor.
He fiestiness isn't part of her development- she has that from the start as a defence mechanism against a whole life of being told the Doctor is imaginary and she made him up.

'She becomes sneaky, deceitful, increasingly egotistical, and brittle. She is dismissive to the poor kid in Flatline, she is not nice at all.'

She becomes like the Doctor in other words- the entire theme being explored in the series- what makes him the Doctor- good and bad.
Nor do I have a clue what kid i Flatline you refer to, there is no kid in Flatline.

'If she becomes a manipulative liar, that's a bad trait in anyones mental gymnasium.'

Not when she uses lying to save lives in Flatline- her solution to defeating the bad guys is a deception too. She tricks them.
Nor is a bad thing when the Doctor uses lying to save everyone on the Orient Express.

This is one of the major themes being explored- when the Doctors use of lying is in the service of the greater good, and when it gets out of control and creates its own problems- as it does throughout the series.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:49 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:She doesn't exhibit one positive trait that she has learnt directly from becoming the Doctors assistant.- Figg

She goes from someone unable to face reality, or to accept a normal life, or who can settle down in any way, she cant even keep a job down for any length of time, to someone who chooses to live a normal ife raising a family. And she does through her interactions withthe Doctor, she grows in confidence and understanding throughout, from the girl who waited (ie never grew up) to the woman who grow up - Look at you, Pond, all grown up- The Doctor.
He fiestiness isn't part of her development- she has that from the start as a defence mechanism against a whole life of being told the Doctor is imaginary and she made him up.

'She becomes sneaky, deceitful, increasingly egotistical, and brittle. She is dismissive to the poor kid in Flatline, she is not nice at all.'

She becomes like the Doctor in other words- the entire theme being explored in the series- what makes him the Doctor- good and bad.
Nor do I have a clue what kid i Flatline you refer to, there is no kid in Flatline.

er yes there is, the Black kid

'If she becomes a manipulative liar, that's a bad trait in anyones mental gymnasium.'

Not when she uses lying to save lives in Flatline- her solution to defeating the bad guys is a deception too. She tricks them.
Nor is a bad thing when the Doctor uses lying to save everyone on the Orient Express.

so not so much mental gymnastics as contortionist of Houdini proportions then

This is one of the major themes being explored- when the Doctors use of lying is in the service of the greater good, and when it gets out of control and creates its own problems- as it does throughout the series.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:50 pm

Courtney? She isnt in Flatline, she is in the Caretaker and Kill the Moon.

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:53 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Courtney? She isnt in Flatline, she is in the Caretaker and Kill the Moon.

for fuck sake the BLACK BOY!! the kid who does the Banksy wall painting Mad

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:00 pm

Um he is not a kid he is an adult- and how does Cara treat him badly? She is the one who who sees his potential over the Doctor-

DOCTOR: Clara, look, I think that we can manage on our own from now on.
CLARA: Yeah, well, I think he could still be useful.

And she then goes on to save his life-

CLARA: Er, what are you doing?
RISBY: I'm going to ram them, buy you some time.
CLARA: You'll die.
RISBY: Yeah, course I'll die. Now go!
CLARA: Well, why'd you want to do that?
RISBY: Just go, okay? Let me do this.
CLARA: Okay, fine, yeah. And I'll always remember you.
RISBY: Fine. Great
CLARA: Cos I was just going to do this.
(She takes a piece of stretchy cord and loops it around the handle and something lower down.)
CLARA: No driver required. And I really like that hair band, but I suppose I'll just take it, will I? And every time I look at it, I'll remember the hero who died to save it. Come on. You're not getting off that lightly. There's work that needs doing.

She then relies on his ablities and skills and to come up with the solution to save the day-

RISBY: Are you okay?
CLARA: Yeah, are you?
RISBY: I think I will be. What's this?
CLARA: Come on, Graffiti Boy, I've got a commission for you.
(She throws him the spray can.)
RISBY: I'm flattered but I don't think this is exactly the time
CLARA: Well, fine, if you don't think you're up to it.
RISBY: What do you need, exactly?

DOCTOR: Ah! The return of the fluorescent pudding brain.
CLARA: You do realise he can hear you now?
DOCTOR: I know. Your last painting was so good it saved the world. I can't wait to see what you do next.
RISBY: (chuckles) It's not going to be easy. I've got a hair band to live up to. Thanks.
(He holds out his hand to Clara, and she pulls him in for a hug.)
CLARA: Come here.

Exactly at what point is she treating him badly?

by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:06 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Um he is not a kid he is an adult-

he is a kid to me. he would be a kid to anyone over 35

and how does Cara treat him badly? She is the one who who sees his potential over the Doctor-

DOCTOR: Clara, look, I think that we can manage on our own from now on.
CLARA: Yeah, well, I think he could still be useful.

And she then goes on to save his life-

CLARA: Er, what are you doing?
RISBY: I'm going to ram them, buy you some time.
CLARA: You'll die.
RISBY: Yeah, course I'll die. Now go!
CLARA: Well, why'd you want to do that?
RISBY: Just go, okay? Let me do this.
CLARA: Okay, fine, yeah. And I'll always remember you.
RISBY: Fine. Great
CLARA: Cos I was just going to do this.
(She takes a piece of stretchy cord and loops it around the handle and something lower down.)
CLARA: No driver required. And I really like that hair band, but I suppose I'll just take it, will I? And every time I look at it, I'll remember the hero who died to save it. Come on. You're not getting off that lightly. There's work that needs doing.

She then relies on his ablities and skills and to come up with the solution to save the day-

RISBY: Are you okay?
CLARA: Yeah, are you?
RISBY: I think I will be. What's this?
CLARA: Come on, Graffiti Boy, I've got a commission for you.
(She throws him the spray can.)
RISBY: I'm flattered but I don't think this is exactly the time
CLARA: Well, fine, if you don't think you're up to it.
RISBY: What do you need, exactly?

DOCTOR: Ah! The return of the fluorescent pudding brain.
CLARA: You do realise he can hear you now?
DOCTOR: I know. Your last painting was so good it saved the world. I can't wait to see what you do next.
RISBY: (chuckles) It's not going to be easy. I've got a hair band to live up to. Thanks.
(He holds out his hand to Clara, and she pulls him in for a hug.)
CLARA: Come here.

Exactly at what point is she treating him badly?

I don't need quotes to know she at one point treats him with a kind of dismissiveness, but I wont find the video

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:09 pm

but I wont find the video- Figg

Yeah because it only exists in your head, not on screen and not in the script. She treats him absolutely fine in that episode (and a hell of a lot nicer than Rose treats, well almost everyone she meets), she treats him as an equal and she uses his abilities against their enemy- "always use your enemies power against them'- something she learned from the Doctor.

by Mrs Figg Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:06 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:but I wont find the video- Figg

Yeah because it only exists in your head,
not on screen and not in the script. She treats him absolutely fine in that episode (and a hell of a lot nicer than Rose treats, well almost everyone she meets), she treats him as an equal and she uses his abilities against their enemy- "always use your enemies power against them'- something she learned from the Doctor.

oh gawd! Bring out your dead! not that old chestnut again. RDT did it worserer nah nah nah!

anyway she does treat him badly at one point, he tries to show her his art and she goes yeah great swiftly moving on to something more interesting and he has this hurt expression on his face. I DID NOT IMAGINE IT. Suspect

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:17 am

Thats hardly treating him bad, being a bit brusque with him, there is an alien threat and people are dying, she is a bit busy trying to fill the Doctor's shoes, and she is far less gruff than he is.
But like him the meat is in the actions- and he actions are to save hi life, use his skills to help others, and to help him to help save everyone else.
The ending makes it clear that after this he could go on to do anything he wants- thats very positive.

not that old chestnut again. RDT did it worserer nah nah nah! - Figg

Well you do have a very bad habit for calling Moffat out on things RTD did far worse or more often.
I saw a classic example earlier- Fear Her, that made me think of your arguments.
Remember you ranting about how inappropriate Rivers "I'm a bit of screamer, now there's a spoiler!" line.
So how come you make no such objection and give a pass to the much, much more obvious sit on your face oral sex joke in Fear Her?

by Mrs Figg Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:13 am

Well you do have a very bad habit for calling Moffat out on things RTD did far worse or more often.
I saw a classic example earlier- Fear Her, that made me think of your arguments.
Remember you ranting about how inappropriate Rivers "I'm a bit of screamer, now there's a spoiler!" line.
So how come you make no such objection and give a pass to the much, much more obvious sit on your face oral sex joke in Fear Her?

slap laugh

you crack me up