Re: Doctor Who [9]

by **Amarië** Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:24 pm

I'm more on Petty's side on this. Or maybe not. I was about to say that it was about live, not sex. But Jenny's posing was pure pornogrophy in those days.

And the way to normalize something is to treat it like it is normal. Here it's repeated so many times that you start to wonder if it is weird and abnormal in stead. GAY!! Lets giggle and blush a bit.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:53 pm

Vastra and Jenny are suppose to be who Doyle based Sherlock and Watson on, and there relationship is much the same except they really are gay.
The painting scene is a reflection of the same relationship Holmes and Watson have, only with a sexual angle added because they are married. Jenny is posing because it entertains Vastra.
Just as Holmes will often get Watson to do something just to amuse himself.

by Mrs Figg Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:19 am

ye gods

((((((

talk about steaming pile of pseudo ))))))

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:28 am

Moffat has stated in episode that is the case (The Snowmen). And there is no other current writer in TV who knows the characters of Sherlock and Watson better. Its not exactly surprising he finds some amusement in finally putting those personalities into a gay couple. I can quite see why he couldn't resist.

by Mrs Figg Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:41 am

But Vastra and Jenny are not remotely Sherlocky, the only similarity is Victorian London.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:46 am

They are a detective team who help out Scotland Yard in an unofficial capacity in Victorian London.
Vastra is the brilliant deductive one, Jenny is the stalwart sidekick ever ready to physically defend.
They even have their network of street urchins, just as Holmes does.
Vastra treats Jenny much as Holmes does Watson. Vastra has Jenny serve the tea, even in private, just as Holmes will get Watson to fetch something for him thats sitting closer to Holmes.
And the way Jenny reacts to Vastra is the same as Watson to Holmes, she puts up with the eccentricities, like the painting incident with a bit of annoyance, but then swings back to staunchly loyal (or loving in Jenny's case) an forgives.

Its the same basic set up.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:29 am

Children in need xmas prequel, very Holmes set up.

And introducing themselves to their version of Lestrade-

Couldnt find the clip- but dialogue from the Snowman Episode-

Simeon- Well, I am honoured this evening. The veiled detective and her fatious accomplice.

Jenny (curtseying)- At your service.

Simeon- You realise Doctor Doyle is almost certainly basing his fantastical tales on your own exploits, with a few choice alterations of course. I doubt the readers of the Strand magazine would accept that the Great Detective is in reality, a woman. And her suspiciously intimate companion.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:37 am

Documentary with the 5th Doctor Peter Davidson on what it takes to play the Doctor-

by Eldorion Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:01 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Vastra and Jenny are suppose to be who Doyle based Sherlock and Watson on

Spoiler:

by bungobaggins Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:06 am

Did that actually happen in an episode? Can't remember.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:16 am

I posted the quote above, from the xmas episode The Snowmen-

Simeon- You realise Doctor Doyle is almost certainly basing his fantastical tales on your own exploits, with a few choice alterations of course. I doubt the readers of the Strand magazine would accept that the Great Detective is in reality, a woman. And her suspiciously intimate companion.

by Forest Shepherd Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:30 am

I ran with it when it came up in the episode. The show doesn't focus on them enough to illustrate the extent of Vastra's "Holmesian" tendencies, so it doesn't bother me all that much.
For the sake of all under-rated detectives in Victorian England I do wish this Dr. Who version of Lestrade was not such an under-whelmingly unintelligent individual.

by Ringdrotten Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:42 am

Eldorion wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Vastra and Jenny are suppose to be who Doyle based Sherlock and Watson on

Spoiler:

That picture is hilarious lol!

by **Amarië** Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:20 pm

It's kinda cute, not only has he turned his own Sherlock series into a fanfiction version of itself, now he also has fem!lizard!Sherlock and fem!watson in an AU Wholock crossover. Quite impressive!

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:38 pm

I said I could see why he had done it, they are meant to be the fun characters and Moffat had fun with them.
If you look at the timing he first created them for a Good Man Goes To War immediately after writing the first series of Sherlock.
So he certainly didn't do it for fan service as he had no idea what a hit Sherlock would be when he would have been first writing Vastra and Jenny.

by Mrs Figg Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:32 pm

I agree with Eldo.

by azriel Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:41 pm

Im not entirely sure you should include another component into Dr Who at all ? Dr Who should focus on Dr who. Sherlock should focus on Sherlock. just cos the same writer wrote both stories shouldnt mean they have to hint or merge together. I like my stories separate so I can enjoy each one & have something to look forward to, I dont think I like the idea of a merger no matter how slight.

by Mrs Figg Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:32 pm

yeah. Its also a bit naughty using somebody elses characters and inserting references to them in a show. its not very original, the great thing about Who has always been characters you never see anywhere else like the Daleks. Its fresh. If you start getting all pop culture it will date sooner. I know a lot of people seem to like WhoLock, but that can be done as a seperate thing.

by Eldorion Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:33 pm

Amarië wrote:It's kinda cute, not only has he turned his own Sherlock series into a fanfiction version of itself, now he also has fem!lizard!Sherlock and fem!watson in an AU Wholock crossover. Quite impressive!

{{{Series 3 still hurts. I never was able to convince my mom to finish watching it.}}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I said I could see why he had done it, they are meant to be the fun characters and Moffat had fun with them.
If you look at the timing he first created them for a Good Man Goes To War immediately after writing the first series of Sherlock.
So he certainly didn't do it for fan service as he had no idea what a hit Sherlock would be when he would have been first writing Vastra and Jenny.

According to Wikipedia, that episode didn't start filming until Januarly 2011. The first series of Sherlock aired in July-August 2010. I don't know when the episode was written, but he could easily have thrown in an extra line later. Or it might have been just for his own gratification, because many of the more fanficcy aspects of Sherlock feel that they're intended to "service" Moffat himself as much as they are there for fans.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Good_Man_Goes_to_War#cite_note-9

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:42 pm

Im not entirely sure you should include another component into Dr Who at all ? Dr Who should focus on Dr who.- Azriel

One of them is a lizard from the dawn of time and her butler is an impaired Sontaron warrior from a clone batch. I think its plenty Who enough still.

'Its also a bit naughty using somebody elses characters and inserting references to them in a show.'

Who has a long history from this example to Arthur Dent. The Doctor often turns out, as a gag usually, to have been the source behind someone or something we didnt know. He has claimed responsibility or had an effect on everything from music to novels. Thats been happening since classic Who.

by Mrs Figg Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:11 pm

its one thing to say he had an influence on real events, as that is kind of cool, but to co-opt another writers characters for a gag is another thing altogether. For example the Doctor meeting Vincent is interesting but an in-joke using someone elses fictional characters is a bit lame.

by Bluebottle Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:36 pm

So, even when writing Doctor Who Moffat can't help but tease a possible John Sherlock romance? Razz

by azriel Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:37 pm

Oh I didnt mean character wise Smile

I meant but didnt explain myself correctly that I want just Dr Who, aliens included, weird worlds etc, & I also want just Sherlock, Watson etc. Im not happy to have a Dr Wholock ? or a Sherwho ? Both ideas & stories are great on their own ground, I dont really want to see them merge or morph into a mish mash.

by Pettytyrant101 Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:52 pm

I dont think it is a Sherwho, as we dont see them that often, 4 episodes in total I think they have been in. And when we do see them they are involved with the Doctor, so we get a purely Who story not a Sherlock influenced one.
Simply knowing that Moffat is teasing Sherlock and Watson in their characters just helps shed light I think on the relationship between Vastra and Jenny, and how they treat one another.

by Bluebottle Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:02 pm

At least Norc will be happy, as this plays into her "Moffat will make Johnlock canon" thing. Laughing