Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by halfwise Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:50 pm
- Episode stuff:
- The opening sequence was nice to see, but I couldn't help but think about the complaints I read recently in this thread about Cersei's character. The horrible little child that she was in the opening scene simply did not carry through as it should have to how Cersei is now as an adult. It was probably just the influence of the recent complaints, but she did feel like too sympathetic of a character.
>> I think the argument that a crappy child turns into a crappy adult is bogus. many people reflect and socialize as they get older.
[Book Related Spoiler]
I'm quite curious about whether they actually killed off Mance as they appeared to have done. The actual switch-up of Mance and the Lord of Bones in the book was something that occurred in-between chapters or books from what I remember, but this made it look like they actually just killed his character.
>> in the book you didn't know about the substitution until later. Makes sense the show would do the same.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Forest Shepherd Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:55 pm
That may be as you say, but the character we're talking about here in this HBO television series that is based off of an epic fantasy book series is once again having the sympathetic aspects of her character emphasized in an interesting departure from the book that deserves some comment and discussion.halfwise wrote:
- Episode stuff:
>> I think the argument that a crappy child turns into a crappy adult is bogus. many people reflect and socialize as they get older.
[Book Related Spoiler]
I'm quite curious about whether they actually killed off Mance as they appeared to have done. The actual switch-up of Mance and the Lord of Bones in the book was something that occurred in-between chapters or books from what I remember, but this made it look like they actually just killed his character.
>> in the book you didn't know about the substitution until later. Makes sense the show would do the same.
I think that book-Cersei's main development from childhood to adulthood was a hardening of spirit due to the suffering that she undergoes and the understanding that her role in life will be unpleasant and one of outward obeisance. Her instinctive cruelty, however, is a trait that has carried on throughout her life quite admirably. It is this cruel side of her nature that is less apparent in the show.
- Spoiler:
- Upon further consideration I suppose that young Cersei was not particularly mean-spirited either. She had a naive selfishness about her and her fate, but upon hearing of her future sorrows we are shown the same sympathetic side to her character. It is a little thing, but Cersei's book departure from the tent is not shown either, when she takes up a potion and throws it in Maggy's face.
Edit:
As to the second point, in the book we are not shown everything so explicitly. It happens in the background from what I remember, perhaps between chapters. Perhaps I missed the nuances, but everyone involved seemed to fully believe that they were actually burning you-know-who.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Mrs Figg Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:35 pm
I really enjoyed it although it was a slow burn aftermath episode.
- Spoiler:
- It seemed all the characters were suffering from the worst hangovers from the worst party the world has ever known. Everyone seemed to regret what they got up to in the last episode. specially Tyrion.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Forest Shepherd Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:49 pm
....Mrs Figg wrote:I really enjoyed it although it was a slow burn aftermath episode.
...
.......
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Forest Shepherd Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:45 am
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by bungobaggins Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:59 am
Haven't seen the episode yet. Hopefully I'll have time later this week. 
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Eldorion Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:42 am
Definitely let us know what you think of it when you get the chance, bungo!
A few thoughts and responses on the episode:
A few thoughts and responses on the episode:
- Spoiler:
- It was a kind of predictable Game of Thrones-ism that Maggy the Frog was made young, hot, and cleavage-y. Kinda weird that they left out the valonqar bit. I wonder if that's due to changes later down the line.
I don't think that they're including the glamor and Mance's survival. In the book that was foreshadowed by the Lord o' Bones (in Mance's body) screaming and denying his kingship. Show!Mance died in as dignified and courageous a way as possible, considering the method of execution. Besides, has the Lord o' Bones even made an appearance since S3? I just can't see them using this subplot.
I thought child!Cersei came across as a spoiled and cruel brat, particularly given the casual threats of violence. I suppose that could just be a factor of the extreme inequality in feudal society, I don't give D&D that much credit).
So Varys claims to Tyrion that he and Illyrio were trying to set up a Targaryen on the throne way back in S1, but is he telling the truth? I think that, if Faegon does not appear in the show, that Varys is what he appears to be on this front. And I don't think Faegon is coming. But this still leaves the question of why Varys was actively involved in the assassination attempt against Dany by Robert.
The use of the flashback makes me wish that they had used some sort of flashback to Robert's Rebellion in the first season to help establish the significance of those events. How many show viewers even remember who Rhaegar was at this point? Child!Cersei mentions a prince, but I wonder how many viewers realized that said prince would end up being killed by Cersei's future husband.
Anyway though, I liked the episode, but it's hard to judge GOT on an episode by episode basis since it's so heavily serialized. I suspect that my future enjoyment of individual episodes will depend largely on which subplots get included in which episodes, though. I kinda expect that they will continue to not show all characters in every episode, which is probably good in terms of developing the story in reasonably sized chunks, but it does make me think that there might be too many characters, even considering all the ones who were cut from the books. Hopefully they can juggle them well.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Tinuviel Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:30 am
I couldn't stop myself and found the leaked episodes online. I only watched episode 2, and all I will say is that it picks up more. Episode 1 was very blah to me, but it has to be to set up what's to come. The end though was excellent, maybe a little cheesy with
- Spoiler:
- Jon Snow dramatically walking away after shooting Mance (idk if that's the spelling) but eh it was unexpected for me all the same.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Eldorion Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:36 am
Hmm, have you ever read the books, Tin? I only ask because if you haven't, then we should probably move some of the speculation back over to the book-centric ASOIAF thread. At least until the end of the season when there will be no more extant books to base our speculation on. 
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Forest Shepherd Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:02 am
I didn't actually think about that change to Maggy, good point.
The plethora of male bums this time around, especially the bedroom scene with Margaery, were far more noticeable for me. That is to say... well just saying.
Anyway, Maggy was played by the actress Jodhi May, who I know from one of my favourite old VHS films, Last of the Mohicans! Daniel Day-Lewis is the star of that film, but Jodhi May had a very poignant role as the younger sister of Munro's two daughters. The film has nearly nothing to do with the book of course, but it stands out as one of my favourites in that genre.
The plethora of male bums this time around, especially the bedroom scene with Margaery, were far more noticeable for me. That is to say... well just saying.
Anyway, Maggy was played by the actress Jodhi May, who I know from one of my favourite old VHS films, Last of the Mohicans! Daniel Day-Lewis is the star of that film, but Jodhi May had a very poignant role as the younger sister of Munro's two daughters. The film has nearly nothing to do with the book of course, but it stands out as one of my favourites in that genre.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:03 pm
yeah the male bums were 3 and counting
still no reason why Melisande had black hair?
I could hardly recognize Jodhi May, and yes her ending in LOTM was pretty tragic
and I remember it shocked me at the time.
still no reason why Melisande had black hair?
I could hardly recognize Jodhi May, and yes her ending in LOTM was pretty tragic
and I remember it shocked me at the time.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Tinuviel Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:35 pm
Eldorion wrote:Hmm, have you ever read the books, Tin? I only ask because if you haven't, then we should probably move some of the speculation back over to the book-centric ASOIAF thread. At least until the end of the season when there will be no more extant books to base our speculation on.
No I haven't read the books and I'm trying not to spoil things for myself either so I avoid the ASOIAF thread like a plague!
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Eldorion Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:49 pm
Mrs Figg wrote:still no reason why Melisande had black hair?
It's a good point, but I'm not sure. Unless it was just a lighting issue, I have no idea.
Tinuviel wrote:No I haven't read the books and I'm trying not to spoil things for myself either so I avoid the ASOIAF thread like a plague!
No problem, I'll do my best to keep my book-based speculation in the ASOIAF thread from now on, regardless of spoiler tags.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:37 pm
I'm not really sure what to say about that.. On the one hand they put themselves in some great situations, with Stannis and Jon atop the Wall, Illyrio's mansion and so on, and the acting, costumes and so on were really top notch. I can't help but think that is part of what blinds so many main stream reviewers from all the problems with the writing. Because there are a lot, and they detracted wildly with regards to this episode for me. I'm not really sure where to start. Obviously, I admit some of my complaints are down to the series lacking the nuance and deepth of the books, and coming of worse in a comparison, but a lot of it is down to lack of consistency in the story and characterisations internally in the show. Some facepalm moments;
That was a lof of nitpicking.
But, honestly you can do that with just about every scene in this episode. I do think and hope as Tin says that it picks up in the next one. I still think, or at least hope, it's possible to enjoy the show on it's own merit from here on out, if one accepts their backpeddling with regards to their own narrative at this point. They can't keep doing that though. If there is going to remain any semblance of a coherent narrative.
- Spoiler:
- ".. you shall have three."
Really, if you are going to intrduce original elements to an adapatation, at least stick to them.
Loras, Ollyvar, Dorne shaped birthmark..
Enough said.
Stannis and Jon atop the Wall.
"The man who put a knife through Rob Starks heart."
Firstly, isn't that "the traitor Rob Stark", the one you threw a leach in the fire to kill? This is really out of character. Stannis is rigid, and does not take betrayal lightly. He would not speak in this way about a traitor, and he would not use this kind of backhanded technique to earn anyones loyalty. (Then again they have gotten Stannis character wrong form day one, so who knows.)
And secondly, how do you know Roose Bolton did this? The only one who could have spread that tale was himself, and telling it would turn the entier north against him, so why would he..
Let's not even get into him knowing Tywin is dead days after it happened, because news travel with the speed of light in Westeros obviously.
Secondly, he's going to burn Mance if he doesn't bend the knee. Well, perhaps that is a beliveable characterisatin, but the more straightforward reason of Mance being a Nights Watch deserter isn't even mentioned. No, it's all about Stannis being a zealot who burns people.. For not burning hteir idols of the Seven, for not bending the knee. We can perhaps with some mental gymnastics think Stannis would pardon his crime if he bent the knee, but he stlls says he will burn him for not bending the knee, not for him breaking his vows..
Tyrion and Varys at Illyrios.
First of all "our country".
Varys is not from the Seven Kingdoms, which has learly been covered previously.
He met Illyrio "some years ago". And they, a Penthosi tradesman and a Lysene spymaster decided the Targaryans should be put back on the throne because of Roberts misrule.. Because of their care for the smallfolk of the Seven Kingdoms.. It's not like Robert predecessor, a Targaryan, was burning people alive or something, and that the realm had gone through a long era of peace under Robert. Let's not even touch the anachronistic "for the many" stuff.
"Who said anything about him". So we're supposed to believe he's supporting the Targaryans. Namely the Targaryan he sent assasins after in season 1, who he set up with the Dorthraki, think for a minute, as George intended the reader to do, about the Targaryans returning with a Dorthraki hord. With 40000 Dorthraki raping and pillaging their way throught the country the whole of Westeros would instantly turn to this Targaryan saviour. It was a trap, and meant as such. It also means Varys thought Viserys would have made a good king. A better king than Robert.
I'll just be over here pretendign Varys was lying through his teeth.
"But that would mean.."
LALALALA I can't hear you.
The Daenerys scenes still feel flat to me. That's one instance I would critisize the acting.. or the direction or the writing. Something is wrong anyway. And it was the same last year. Except for Dany chaining up the dragons and her exiling Jorah all her scenes felt flat. And I miss the colour of the Meereenese court with Skahaz and Reznak and so on. It would have made her court more belivable and lively to have some Mereneese characters help rule their own city.
Littlefinger and Sansa.
Littlefinger is giving up Robin Arryn, and effectively control of the Vale, just like that, because? We needed him to go somewhere else?
Somewhere else not even Cersei Lannister can reach you. You mean somewhere safe? With people who last season swore to protect you from the Lannisters? Like the Vale?
Honestly, I have no idea why Brienne and Pod are still in this story.. And they felt the need to give Bran a years brake?
I must admit seeing Kevan again made me excited though. I hope they give him some good material to work with. Obviously he's not going to tell Cersei to go to hell, because that would mean the viewers might think someone in the story thought Cersei incompetent. Heaven forbid.
That was a lof of nitpicking.
But, honestly you can do that with just about every scene in this episode. I do think and hope as Tin says that it picks up in the next one. I still think, or at least hope, it's possible to enjoy the show on it's own merit from here on out, if one accepts their backpeddling with regards to their own narrative at this point. They can't keep doing that though. If there is going to remain any semblance of a coherent narrative._________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:40 pm
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/116332762767/game-of-snobbery-05x01-a-book-readers-recap
I like their perspective from a book readers point of view on this episode too. (It's a bit nitpicky, but..)
I like their perspective from a book readers point of view on this episode too. (It's a bit nitpicky, but..)
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Mrs Figg Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:30 pm
- Spoiler:
- I personally like they are keeping the Brienne storyline in. It really does feel as if a lot of characters are really suffering mentally and physically from what happened in season4 last episodes. I agree about Dany, she has never truly captured my imagination because of some wooden acting, same as Cersei and her wooden acting. are we sure its Dany that varys is talking about? there are other females knocking about.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:23 pm
- Spoiler:
- Yes, there's definitely something going on there. Whether it is the direction or writing, as well as the acting, perhaps a combination of all three. It does seem odd though if they weren't asking her to play it that way. Particularily when she showed in previous season that she could o the role quite well. That was before she needed to become "queenly" though.
I think Brienne is my least favourite character.in the books, although she's even worse in the show where she is a brute and a bully, but at least in the books her story was going somewhere. It had a point. Her storyline this season will be completely original. And if she is going to spend another season doing nothing of consequense, why does she even need to be on the show? Let's hope she does actually get to do something worthwhile.
I don't really see any other females it could be. (Haha, I just thought.. Sansa perhaps. ) And I think it's a pretty clear reference that Varys is supporting Daenerys. At least that's what he's telling Tyrion. 
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by halfwise Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:10 am
- Spoiler:
- Cersei's wooden acting? She's usually a standout.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:39 pm
- Spoiler:
- for me all she does is sneer and drink, in a monotone voice. She certainly looks the part but I don't get anything underneath. I thought child Cercsei was a better actor, she presented that sense of entitlement and threat of violence but with just a hint of vulnerability, I thought it showed on her face and that's what I find lacking in Cersei. its ok in books because you know whats going on underneath but onscreen theres just a beautiful blank statue imo.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Forest Shepherd Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:13 pm
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Got you!
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by halfwise Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:43 pm
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:25 pm
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
- Spoiler:
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:42 pm
Using spoiler tags to discuss Lena Headeys general appearance on the show was perhaps a bit unecessary.
I see where Figg is coming from though. She is a bit one note. It's always that sarcastic leer.
I see where Figg is coming from though. She is a bit one note. It's always that sarcastic leer.
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