Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

by Mrs Figg Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:16 pm

woah that was intense. Sad

Spoiler:

by bungobaggins Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:38 am

Eldorion wrote:
bungobaggins wrote:Good, I'm hoping to see the bigger picture events pan out (If the horse people and that blonde chick will gather an army and try to take back the throne. Although they hadn't gone into detail about why the blonde guy lost the throne in the first place. See what I mean about keeping track of names?).

It's been ages since I've watched the first few episodes, but don't they explain Robert's Rebellion in there? It might be helpful to peruse one of the two major wikis.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert%27s_Rebellion -- this one is for the show but will contain references to more recent episodes, though backstory stuff tends to be safer.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert%27s_Rebellion -- this is for the books, and tends to be a higher-quality wiki in general IMO, but has spoilers for stuff past the point that the show has reached.

I hope that you enjoy the show. I got big into the book series in 2009 after being introduced to it by people on another Tolkien forum, and getting back into it lately has been a lot of fun and is sort of deepening my appreciation for the series. I've read a fair bit of high fantasy literature over the years and this is one of the only ones that have made me stop to reconsider if LOTR is still my favorite book. Not that ASOIAF has passed it yet (it'll need to be complete first, and hopefully bounce back from the fourth and to a lesser degree the fifth books), but it's really good.

Going back to them not clearly explaining Robert's Rebellion during the first season. They actually did explain it in the last episode when Bran Stark and the wildling woman are in the crypt. Other than that moment the viewer is just fed bits of information about it here and there.

by Forest Shepherd Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:58 am

I just got back from watching the latest episode.
I didn't much like it. Crying or Very sad

I was emotionally sad at the time however, so that certainly affected things.

Spoiler:

by Semiramis Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:32 am

Mountain vs Viper Spoiler (?):

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:02 am

Too gory? Really? Have you never read the histories of our past? Or even the current stat of affairs in many places?

I do love the 'no need for it' crowd. When it comes to gore, there is plenty left out. Could only imagine the state of the battlefield after a battle. People don't just gracefully spin around and fall dramatically to the ground when they get a longsword through the belly. Neither did they pull out a big black censorship board to protect the crowd from seeing beheadings or flayings or the other thousand ways people were publicly put to death. Or when they died in the fighting pits being mauled by tigers and bears.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 am

Can't comment on the gore in GoT as I dont watch it.
But one thing these sort of programs always get wrong is everyone is too nice looking.
Contemporary descriptions and the evidence of the bones from medieval periods show most people were pretty grim looking.
If you weren't missing bits from work accidents or from fights (apparently keeping both your ears and your nose intact was surprisingly rare) chances are you had other physical marks from illness- pock marks ect and on top of that there was a lack of cleanliness- hair and clothes crawling with bugs.

If they want to cast a realistic set of characters for such a time frame they want to be looking to the maimed in the casting.

by Forest Shepherd Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:32 am

I probably intended more to express my general malaise about Oberyn's ending being as tragic as it was. The scene was extremely violent however, and the level of said violence played a part in the extent to which it disturbed me (which was the point I guess).

Similarly, I really doubt that you merely intended to insult my knowledge of the state of the world today, and the realities of the past.

That being said, I'd like to ask everyone in general what, exactly, the scene at the end of the last episode in which Gregor Clegane is shown (in King's Landing) cutting down a line of barely-trained soldiers/prisoners/whatevers one at a time was doing in the show considering that it had no part in the book and didn't accomplish anything beyond introducing the new actor for the Mountain, and adding to the body count for the season.
I thought it was poorly handled. The men being killed were clearly not just criminals being executed, as they are handed weapons before facing Gregor. If this is some sort of warm-up exercise for Gregor, who alone of all the soldiery in the show thus far apparently needs warm flesh to practice his sword strokes in, then hey-ho and good for him.
Otherwise, it was heavy-handed filmmaking and something I'd expect from Spartacus, not Game of Thrones.

I guess I should have said the violence of the scene, not the gore. As it was the violent ending Oberyn suffers through that's such a letdown for his character. (By gore I mean how much of the interior of the human body we are shown. By violence I mean the extent to which the scene actually captures the feel of a human being subjected to physical harm.)

Lancebloke wrote:When it comes to gore, there is plenty left out.

When it comes to this scene, there was no gore left out. That is the general flavour of the show.
Gore being left out would be a result of ratings and industry standards and the "no need for it" crowd and filmmakers simply not wanting, or needing, to go there in their film or tv series.

by Forest Shepherd Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:57 am

A Storm of Swords:

Viper and the Mountain:

So I guess the show didn't include quite as much gore as it could have. The book passage focuses on

Spoiler:

Anyway, I forget the point of all this. It was an ultraviolent end for a character I liked. I didn't enjoy the episode as much as others apparently have, and this may be due to my mood at the time of watching. Enough on it, words are wind.

by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:10 pm

Its GOT. It does what it says on the tin. If you watch it its with the understanding there is going to be sex, nudity and extremely violent death. Its not fluffy bunnies having a tea party. I personally couldnt watch the end bit where the Mountain finishes him off, it was too much to watch, but it made the death of such an interesting sympathetic character all the more terrible and tragic. There was just as much anguish that went unspoken in this episode, which is part of the reason GOT is superior tv making as it can be subtle as it can be crude. It shows many characters inner pain very well which counterbalances the medieval violence.

just out of interest I was wondering who could take on the Mountain and win, for me it a toss up between Daario or Jaquen, the Hound would be too angry and make mistakes like Viper did, or maybe Bronn could, as he would use any foul play to win.

by Forest Shepherd Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:25 pm

The Mountain suffers from poison as any man would. Any semi-able Faceless Man of Braavos would be able to accomplish the job. My vote is for Jaquen.
Daario would just prance around striking poses for Danaerys until his pretty, dumb nose got chopped off.

Oh oops you mean in combat.
Yeah Bronn would probably have the best chance. Sandor couldn't do it, as his fighting style is the same as his brother's.

by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:32 pm

hmm maybe, but when I think of Daario its always the old Daario who was pretty handy with those evil looking scimitars he uses.

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:48 pm

Forest - No... I wasn't meaning to insult anyone'e knowledge about any point I made. I was merely trying to say that this history of humanity has very often been extremely violent and still is today.

GoT doesn't shy away from that and I think that is part of why it is a good show along with the counter balances of both mental pain (Catelyn, Sansa for example) and on the other side pleasures in life from things like whore houses down to the loving romance that was Robb's story and what seems to be going on in Littlefinger's head with Sansa etc.

As to the added scene of Gregor chopping everyone up. The books before that point made a lot of 'off screen' references to the destruction and terror that he spread during the war. We hardly see that in the series and don't really get too much to really show us how much of a monster he is. I think this particular scene was a reintroduction of the character and a reminder that he is both a physical brute and well us a thoroughly unpleasant person.

Figgy - I think Selmy would be able to take him.

by halfwise Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:10 pm

Maybe a young Selmy could take him, not an old one.

by David H Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:31 pm

Lancebloke wrote: beheadings or flayings or the other thousand ways people were publicly put to death. Or when they died in the fighting pits being mauled by tigers and bears.

Go Bears! Metal

There does seem to be a definite recent trend toward disembowelment as entertainment. I think as a society we may be slipping back to those Roman Colosseum days.

I just heard a review by a film critic who'd been to the Cannes Film Fest this year. He said this year there were many movies where loyal pets and innocent puppies died horrible, brutal, tragic deaths. He speculated that audiences who used to gasp at a few blood splatters in Hitchcock classics have become so jaded that human suffering on the screen hardly gets a shrug anymore, so producers and directors are digging ever deeper to find images that will shock and entertain.

I've only watched a couple episodes of GoT. I wasn't offended by anything, but it didn't engage me either, at least not enough to commit to such a long, open-ended series. I am curious though if the series would be as popular if they were squishing kittens and puppies. It may get there yet, who knows...? Shrugging

by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:53 pm

they have already squished a few Direwolf puppies Shrugging

Before GOT violence on mainstream tv was just endless shoot-outs from thousands of cop shows, which got really stale, GOT was a shock to the system and it has spawned many copy cat shows trying to outdo each other without the heart of GOT. For me personally the mental torture inflicted on Theon is way more disturbing and cruel than mere flesh being squished. But Lance is right, its like actually watching medieval times and its fascinating in a rabbit in the headlights kind of way

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:15 pm

There have been plenty of graphic scenes in various different shows/films. Tom Hanks dragging half a corpse with all its guts hanging out in Saving Private Ryan for instance. In real life, people don't get hit by artillery and fly gracefully through the air and land and then have a few minutes to pass on their love to wife and children. In real life it is violent and graphic.

I don't think we have become jaded, in fact I think we are a little to desensitised to violence for the opposite reason. In most programs/films, dying doesn't seem to be too bad. I wonder how many of the boys and girls that go out to Iraq/Afghanistan etc etc etc are far more shocked at reality, and even tempted in to going, because they see it as all action and none of the horror.

I bet most people watching GoT really do not want to get in to a sword fight now. The people that watch LotR probably think it would be quite heroic.

by David H Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:39 pm

I just want to be clear that I'm not arguing good or bad here. I'm just observing and musing. But I've seen a number of people die, and I don't think GoT is that much more realistic than cop show violence. They may or may not have the volumes of blood calculated correctly, but it's still just as slickly packaged for entertainment value.

If you want to see real death, go ride with the ambulance first responders, or go hang out in the trauma clinic in any major hospital. There's lot's more screaming and a lot more piss and shit for one thing. And the smells are an important part of the experience too.

It's really not that entertaining. It's sad and emotionally draining.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:52 pm

Yeah even peacefully dying in your sleep tends to be accompanied by, or followed quickly by, a body evacuation from all ends at once.

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:36 pm

I imagine it isn't that entertaining. Hats off to the people that have to deal with it every day.

by David H Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:22 pm

Yes, they deserve our respect. Most of their work decisions are life and death, and it's often thankless. It takes a special kind of person.
It would be interesting to see a reaction-video of a group of professional trauma medics watching movie violence. I bet they're analyzing every bone, organ and artery!

by Eldorion Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:39 am

Semiramis wrote:
Mountain vs Viper Spoiler (?):

I love "The Denial Version". :DI'm also fond of Tyrion demanding Trial by Kombat:

S4E8 spoilers:

by Eldorion Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:49 am

Forest Shepherd wrote:I guess I should have said the violence of the scene, not the gore. As it was the violent ending Oberyn suffers through that's such a letdown for his character. (By gore I mean how much of the interior of the human body we are shown. By violence I mean the extent to which the scene actually captures the feel of a human being subjected to physical harm.)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you upset that Oberyn died, or did the particular manner of his death seem to cheapen the show and/or the character to you? I thought his death was an interesting inversion of the revenge plot (and somewhat inevitable in GoT-land given the character's single-minded obsession with taking on the Lannisters). I can see how the violence bothers some people, but I thought it was effectively used. The camera certainly didn't linger on the gore and it didn't feel exploitative to me.

by Forest Shepherd Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:27 am

I didn't like that he had to die in such horrifying pain. I knew it would happen, but it still got me anyway. The pain was not so much a part of the book, therefore the violence of it (the screaming and the visual gore) was an aspect of the show that I did not enjoy.
The same thing with the Red Wedding.

Spoiler:

by Mrs Figg Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:10 pm

whos Selmy?

by Eldorion Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:10 pm

Ser Barristan Selmy

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