Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Pettytyrant101]

"even the mere hint of sexual impropriety has marked him & my view of him. "- Azriel

And right there is why I am not at all comfortable that men accused of these crimes have their names and the charges made public long before there is any trial.
Right now he is an innocent man until its proved in court otherwise, but its human nature to assume no smoke without fire.

[halfwise]

The Strauss-Kahn debacle has made clear to me that France is absolutely right to prohibit the names of those under trial to be released. Though child molestation is the worst, being accused of anything ends up being like a witch hunt once the media blasts the name all over the place. I wish i could make it a constitutional amendment.

[Pettytyrant101]

Just watched a piece on BBC Breakfast news about Britian's first female commercial pilot- Yvonne Pope.

Something she said about attitudes I found particularly interesting- she was asked when she first began flying passengers how they reacted to seeing a woman pilot, she replied- "The men were quite practical. They seemed to be of the view, 'well if she's upfront the company must know what they are doing'. But the women were quite scared and if there was ever any issues or problems I would have to reassure them."

Men tend to get all the blame for keeping women back and glass ceilings, but sometimes I wonder if some of the blame should not be placed on women themselves- reminds me of all those women who campaigned against the suffragettes on the basis politics was no place for a woman and unsuitable.

[David H]

but sometimes I wonder if some of the blame should not be placed on women themselves- reminds me of all those women who campaigned against the suffragettes on the basis politics was no place for a woman and unsuitable.

I'm not sure what purpose it serves to be placing blame other than to rile Mrs Figg. It sometimes feels like you view men and women as two sports teams locked in a perpetual competition, and yourself as a referee awarding points and imposing penalties.

For myself, I'm pleased to hear that the professional pilots behaved professionally, and I'm not at all surprised that many of the nonprofessionals, both men and women I'm sure, behaved less than professionally. This is normal during any social change. People who choose to change things expect it and are prepared to deal with it. Placing blame on anybody is just a distraction, and maybe a spectator sport for those on the sidelines.

[Pettytyrant101]

I'm pleased to hear that the professional pilots behaved professionally- David

She wasn't talking about fellow professionals- she was talking about the passengers. The everyday folks.

"I'm not sure what purpose it serves to be placing blame other than to rile Mrs Figg"- David

It had nothing to do with Figg. I saw the piece on the news and I thought it relevant because I think the problem still persists today where we can see modern women in countries where womens rights are repressed supporting the repression.
Its an interesting phenomenon and one I think if ignored, either historically or presently makes positive change all the more difficult.

[Mrs Figg]

Dave hit the nail on the head. Whats the point of blame? We are all socially constructed, women dont come into the world not trusting other women, quite the opposite. Female children trust their mothers as much as male children, but what happens afterwards is nurture not nature. If you grow up in an environment where women drivers, (to take one example) , are laughed at, belittled and hear people saying 'women drivers are hopeless' even though its demonstrable women are actually the safest drivers, some of that is going to sink in to the subconscious. You cannot justify blaming people for how they have been indoctrinated by society.

[Pettytyrant101]

My point was more that historically society in the wide sense of the word has tended to blame solely men- its a mans world ect- this is partly true but its not the whole story as these examples demonstrate, and for so long as society in the wide sense continues to only look at one side of it the problems will persist- you cant get to a solution unless you accept the whole of the problem first.

[Mrs Figg]

Its not partly true, its totally true. Your example does not demonstrate that women are also to blame for sexism, because sexism has been constructed by men, not women. Women are the victims not the perpetrators. Its like blaming Black people for having a different coloured skin, as if they have somehow colluded with the racists. The sexism comes from men alone. But women who have been nurtured into a sexist society will no doubt take on board warped views and perpetuate the misogeny.

If you control (as men have done in the past) the politica (women not having the vote), the religious (priests all being men), the medical (through doctors being all male) , and physical (women being bought and sold in the marriage market), financially (women not owning property) if you as a human being are constantly told your role is to be submissive subservient and that one sex is the superior one, then up until maybe 80 or so years ago and even up until the 60s, women had very little say in their own destiny, and felt second class citizens. This was forced on them by men and its useless to deny it.

[Pettytyrant101]

Its like blaming Black people for having a different coloured skin, as if they have somehow colluded with the racists- Mrs Figg

No it would be more like blaming black people for racism if they were being racist against to each other.
We are talking here about women actively speaking out against what to us in the West seems like more rights for women.

And I dont agree at all sexism comes from men alone- I have worked with a female boss most of my life, and I never seen any of my male co-workers have a problem with that.
But put a male in charge in a care home, in an otherwise female dominated job, and watch the fur fly.

I am not saying male society doesn't have a lot of the blame, it does, but just saying its 100% men and all women are just poor victims is in my view not true.
And whilst thats the prevailing view it will never be fully sorted as it ignores a part of the problem.

[Mrs Figg]

Its like blaming Black people for having a different coloured skin, as if they have somehow colluded with the racists- Mrs Figg

No it would be more like blaming black people for racism if they were being racist against to each other.
We are talking here about women actively speaking out against what to us in the West seems like more rights for women.

who is speaking out exactly?

And I dont agree at all sexism comes from men alone- I have worked with a female boss most of my life, and I never seen any of my male co-workers have a problem with that.
But put a male in charge in a care home, in an otherwise female dominated job, and watch the fur fly.

not sure that would stand up as 'evidence' women are sexist against each other.

I am not saying male society doesn't have a lot of the blame, it does, but just saying its 100% men and all women are just poor victims is in my view not true.
And whilst thats the prevailing view it will never be fully sorted as it ignores a part of the problem.

I still dont understand what you are saying here

[Eldorion]

Has anyone been following the news coming out of Russia lately?  Over 30 people killed in back-to-back suicide bombings in Volgograd (formerly Stalingrad), which are widely assumed to have been carried out by insurgents from the North Caucasus region.  These groups have also been a cause for concern with the upcoming Winter Olympics, which will be held in Sochi, which is in the same general region of Russia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25546477

[Mrs Figg]

yes I saw that. Putin has got problems.

btw Has anyone heard any more about Michael Schumacker?

[Eldorion]

Last I heard he was in a coma and critical condition. Hope he pulls through. Skiing can be terrifying sometimes.

[David H]

Just my point of view, but I know of a lot of men who want their sons to grow up to be like them, and a lot of women who want their daughters to grow up to be like them.  I know a lot of parents who want their kids to go away from here, get an education and "make something of themselves", and other parents who feel that kids who aim higher than they did are "uppity" and need to be brought down a notch.

Because the expected roles of both men and women are changing, this leads to a lot of confusion, especially with women where the rolls have been changing the fastest. I can point to mothers and sisters who expect one young woman to chose a "traditional" life, and to others who feel strongly about NOT choosing a traditional life. Both are a prejudice, but I wouldn't call them sexist. Exactly the same thing is happening with men as the "traditional" life becomes less and less common. And then there's the issue of where sex roles and gender roles diverge. Parents often have a hard time with this for exactly the same reasons, but I wouldn't say it crosses the line to homophobia. I think it's all just part of being human.

To me, Sexism means something much bigger and uglier than the normal, everyday social prejudices we all have toward almost everybody we meet: age, height, weight, clothes, accent, etc.  That level of prejudice will never go away between and among the sexes as long as some of us have penises and some of us have vaginas. {{And I hope that's a very long time!  }}

[bungobaggins]

Has anyone been following the news coming out of Russia lately?  Over 30 people killed in back-to-back suicide bombings in Volgograd (formerly Stalingrad), which are widely assumed to have been carried out by insurgents from the North Caucasus region.  These groups have also been a cause for concern with the upcoming Winter Olympics, which will be held in Sochi, which is in the same general region of Russia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25546477

I haven't been following the news at all lately. That's terrible news.

Weren't the Boston bombers from the North Caucasus?

[Pettytyrant101]

I was wondering if in this new era if the one thing which might unite the separate world powers of Russia, US and China is fighting religious nutjobs intent on blowing themselves and everyone else up.

I have never quite worked out what it is they want, but if its all for us to do exactly as we are told and to believe what we are told then they only need look at Forumshire, that should tell them that aint going to happen let alone trying to do it to the whole world.

If I wanted to live by laws that are 2000 years of date Id move to the Isle of Man!

[Eldorion]

The Chechens have been fighting the Russians since the late 18th century, so I'd be hesitant to interpret these events solely in the context of the post-2001 War on Terror.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen%E2%80%93Russian_conflict

[Pettytyrant101]

Yes but they haven't been suicide bombing jihadists in a world with a global selection of suicide bombing jihadists to link up with.

And in the past no one else cared if the Russians had problems with Chechens, we only care now because a very similar looking problem is the wolf at our own door too.

And WW2 was basically a coalition of people following the old mantra of the enemy of my enemy is my friend (at least for now).

[Eldorion]

And WW2 was basically a coalition of people following the old mantra of the enemy of my enemy is my friend (at least for now).

That's a terrible mantra to follow, though, generally speaking.

[Pettytyrant101]

I'm not saying it is a good mantra (didnt exactly turn out well when the fighting stopped after WW2- we got the cold war and a nuclear arms race out of it, the collapse of the Middle East and the dangerous segregation of countries in the East), just that its happened in fairly recent history, and there are more and more countries finding themselves being hit with this type of attack. And some of those countries are super powers.

[Eldorion]

You're about 12 years late to the party, Petty.  That was basically the line after 9/11.  If the whole world was going to come together to fight "radical Islam", it would have been in 2001.  My understanding is that the international jihadist movement has become more fragmented since then, however. It's also important to note that groups like the Caucasian Emirate, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, or any of the numerous splinter and affiliated groups in these regions have fairly specific goals related to ethnic nationalism and are not necessarily working together, despite sharing a common religion.

[Orwell]

{{{Think that's bad, Eldo... It's nothing like what Amarie, Azriel and Julia have done to you in Creative Corner. But you never heard it from me.  }}}

[azriel]

Aye ??? Orwell, what are you up to now !   

[Pettytyrant101]

Eldo I am not saying there is an international organised threat.
It looks to me likes there are a hell of a lot of individual groups who work alone but occasionally help each other or do joint jobs- just like our governments do in fact.

But the basic problem- how do you stop radical people form committing atrocities without watching everyone all the time remains the same in a lot of important countries. Thats the common problem, the common enemy. Their relationship to each other isn't important, its just there might come a point when everyone suffering gets together and decides things would be better if they no longer existed.

[Eldorion]

Well again, the US has been trying to do that since 9/11.  It's why we're involved in counter-insurgency operations in Yemen, the Philippines, the Horn of Africa, and the Sahel right now.  I don't expect Russia or China to request US help in these matters, though.