Fjordlandia Viking bar & kaffistove, main str. 221B, Needlehole

"... and in that brambled void, plenty as blackberries in the wood, the dead grow for His joy" #DylanThomasThursday

I'd never pick berries that clearly belong to a farm or a house. What people grow at home is considered theirs, and even asking permission to pick would be odd. At least, that's the way it works where I live. I'd be madly pissed if somebody stole my strawberries, that's for sure

That's more or less how I feel about it too.  But I just met some folks with a sense of entitlement that told me to my face that they had a right to pick my berries because I was only going to let them go to waste.  I let them finish their buckets before they left, but it just seemed strange....

I asked particularly of the Fjordlandians because I remember there is an ancient Everyman's Right that allows people to sleep wherever they found themselves at night as long as they did no harm.  

It seemed quite civilized when I was traveling through Scandinavia, but I was careful not to abuse it.  I was wondering if it somehow extended to berry picking.  Apparently not!

And by the way, all Forumshire residents are welcome to pick blackberries on my farm at any time. Please help yourselves!

id steel everything apart from any dylan Thomas poetry

It seems you're a nicer man than me, David - I can think of quite a few things I'd have liked to have done to them with that bucket

The Everyman's Right is an interesting thing, and I like it a lot. Like you say, it allows you to roam freely and do whatever you want as long as you do so respectfully and don't spoil anything. It doesn't apply for all land, however - in Norway, a landowner's land is split in what is called "utmark" and "innmark". I'm not sure how they're best translated, but "mark" in this context means "land", and "ut-" and "inn-" simply means "out" and "in".

The Everyman's Right applies in "utmark" - this is the largest part of a landowner's land, and it is free to use for everyone (though, obviously, you can't build or destroy things there), as long as you go about with respect and consideration for the land and the landowner. Utmark is almost always uncultivated land, whereas "innmark is the cultivated land, the land on which the landowner has his settlement and his crops. On such land there are many rules that people must follow if they wish to go through it. For example, it is only allowed to cross "innmark" when the land is frozen, to avoid damage to the crops. And berries in somebody's garden is most definitely part of "innmark" area, and I'd consider it very rude if somebody came into my garden or crop and started picking anything from it. Wild berries, however, are found in "utmark", and is free for all

in Norway, a landowner's land is split in what is called "utmark" and "innmark". I'm not sure how they're best translated, but "mark" in this context means "land", and "ut-" and "inn-" simply means "out" and "in".

That's something that doesn't translate, though I think we all have some sense of it, which is probably what gives people the idea they can explore people's farms in the country without asking.

Is the line between ut- and inn- always clear to everybody, or are there grey areas? It really is a very good way to look at things!

The Fjordian sounds similar to here- in England they have trespass laws and people have to fight for the rights to cross land thats owned.
In Scotland we dont have a trespass law as such- you can cross any land, but only so long as you do no damage. So crossing a field of crops that might harm them would count as damage. As would lightning fires and leaving the mess behind.
For the most part people who live in rural areas never have a problem in this area, its usually when city folks come along and leave their crap behind or dont shut field gates and the like its a problem.

Regards taking berries from someones garden or farm it wouldnt happen- certainly not as you describe, it would conceivably count as damage.
You might very politely inquire if they were being picked or just left, and left if it were ok to pick them for yourself. You certainly wont claim it was your right though, because its not here.

Farmers of my Dad's generation would have had the conversation with a shotgun cradled nonthreateningly in their elbow....

Farmers are one of the few groups of people in Scotland allowed to carry firearms, and everyone, even city people know it, so there is always a certain caution and respect given when dealing with farmers.

 

"For the most part people who live in rural areas never have a problem in this area, its usually when city folks come along and leave their crap behind or dont shut field gates and the like its a problem." - Petty

Sounds exactly like how it is here in Fjordia - people who don't often go out camping or hiking seem to think that everything will burn away in a campfire, or just don't give a shit if there they leave heaps of garbage behind.

"Is the line between ut- and inn- always clear to everybody, or are there grey areas? It really is a very good way to look at things!" - David

The line is pretty clear to people who live in the countryside or to people who often go there, as utmark almost always is uncultivated and innmark is cultivated. Many people (not all) who have lived their whole lives in cities have trouble distinguishing one from the other, though, much to the annoyance of landowners.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Farmers are one of the few groups of people in Scotland allowed to carry firearms, and everyone, even city people know it, so there is always a certain caution and respect given when dealing with farmers.

Really? Are you allowed to have a shotgun or a rifle for hunting? In Norway you can own rifles, shotguns and handguns (but no full automatics, and special rules apply for semi automatics) for hunting (rifles & shotguns, no handguns), and shooting sports. There are, of course, tons of paperwork and permissions and applications and whatnot in order to get permission to buy a weapon, but that doesn't stop people from getting them for these purposes.

That's pretty much the same as here then, though it's not codified here. These berrypickers were clearly city folk.  

Ive lost count of the amount of times Ive wondered into some nice scenic spot only to find the remains of a half burnt fire, cans, bottles and plastic bags just lying around.
I hate it.
Only good thing is if they do get caught the law will punish them for it- its catching them at it is the trouble.
In really notable and popular areas, like Loch Lomond (an hour out of Glasgow and your in beautiful countryside) they have patrols looking for people not clearing up or not having properly tended fires and the like.
But rural places and small towns they barely have the police for where people live let alone scouring hillsides.

Really? Are you allowed to have a shotgun or a rifle for hunting?- Ringdrotten

Yes, but the rules are ultra strict-

'Statistics for Scotland show that 70,839 firearms were held by 26,072 certificate holders at the end of last year. Some 50,000 people in Scotland are certificated to hold shotguns - and 137,768 weapons are covered by that scheme.
Police chiefs can revoke certificates if they conclude that the holder can no longer be trusted. In 2008-09, almost 1,300 certificates were revoked.
Getting a licence is a long and complicated business. Every stage of the process is designed to reduce the likelihood of a gun falling into the wrong hands. It starts with an application form which asks specific questions about why the individual wants a gun, telling them they need to show "good reason".
The criteria are tougher for firearms than shotguns because weapons that fire bullets must only be used for specific purposes in specific places. These would include deer stalking or sports shooting on an approved range.
In contrast, shotguns tend to be used in more general rural circumstances, such as by farmers who are protecting livestock from foxes - and police recognise that landowners need guns for pest control.
Independent referees provide confidential character statements in which they are expected to answer in detail about the applicant's mental state, home life and attitude towards guns.
Officers check the Police National Computer for a criminal record and they speak to the applicant's GP for evidence of alcoholism, drug abuse or signs of personality disorder. Social services can also be asked for reasons to turn down an applicant.
Finally, senior officers must be sure that prospective shotgun holders have a secure location for the weapon, typically a dedicated gun cabinet. Each certificate is valid for five years."- BBC

Damn I'm a bit surprised to know that there are countries more strict than Fjordia! There is a lot of paperwork here as well, but it's usually enough to have obtained a hunter's license (which is easy enough, anyone with half a bran can do it), send in an application with purpose (example: hunting deer) and type of weapon (rifle or shotgun, maybe more spesific what sort) and send in a copy of the necessary documents to the shopkeeper and you're the owner of a weapon. You need gun cabinets here too, though. And the police can, like in Scotland, revoke certificates in Norway too, and that happens every now and then.

On balance I think I pefer the law on guns to err on the side of over strict rather on the side of over lax.

Agreed

Agreed

I could just walk in to the local hardware shop. They've got a cabinet of guns behind the counter along side the key-making machine.

Thing is I wouldnt think it wise for a society to let people walk in and buy napalm or a vial of ebola. It seems about as sensible to sell guns that way too.

Until about 20 years ago you could buy dynamite there too if you were 21 and signed for it. Stumping powder and ditching powder used to be very handy around a farm if you don't own a bulldozer.  

They also have a kitchenware department, a garden department and a toy department. It's a wonderful little shop!  

By the way, polystyrene foam dissolved in gasoline makes an excellent napalm if you need to get something wet to burn. I don't think either one is regulated there, is it?

I doubt it- although I have never tried to buy polystyrene, not something you tend to get in your local shop.

They also have a kitchenware department, a garden department and a toy department. It's a wonderful little shop!.....David
Woo hoo, a proper little bomb making factory !