Re: Game of Thrones [2]

by chris63 Mon May 16, 2016 6:19 am

Well well well, who saw that coming.

Game of Thrones [2] - Page 36 Sgt-schultz-nothing

by chris63 Mon May 16, 2016 8:04 am

spoiler:

by halfwise Mon May 16, 2016 12:29 pm

That hair could be a dangerous weapon if used right. Made of titanium or sumpin.

by halfwise Mon May 16, 2016 1:45 pm

A nicely balanced analysis of the Dorne storyline. The author says that the choice to tell the story through Jaime's eyes took away character development time from the Dornish characters, which weakened everything.

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/15/11658264/game-of-thrones-dorne-adaptation-changes

by chris63 Mon May 16, 2016 2:09 pm

by Bluebottle Tue May 17, 2016 12:35 am

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/144457133327/got-6x04-musings

That sounds appaulingly bad. Rolling Eyes

by Eldorion Tue May 17, 2016 2:34 am

I was really tired last night but I ended up catching the episode this afternoon. Was visiting my mom so I got to see it on her TV, which is nice compared to my usual method of watching (laptop). She's still digging the show and we talked a bit about the episode and what we thought might happen next, but I found myself struggling to find anything to say. I don't want to take anything away from people like her who are still enjoying the show by giving nothing but criticism. And the show still has its redeeming qualities, at least sometimes, and this was hardly the worst episode so far. But I have not been finding myself invested in something so inconsistent with both itself (even ignoring the books completely) and, to borrow a Tolkienian phrase, with the "inner consistency of reality" that is a key part of fantasy storytelling. I've been watching despite feeling invested or engaged for a few weeks now, but when it comes to discussion, I neither want to be constantly negative in my thoughts or speech, but I don't want to pretend to enjoy the show more than I do when discussing it either. So anyway, I'm out. See you guys in the movie thread when Warcraft comes out (lol).

by Forest Shepherd Tue May 17, 2016 6:45 am

Bluebottle wrote:http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/144457133327/got-6x04-musings

That sounds appaulingly bad.

I don't know about paul, but you should watch along with us Bluebottle. With Eldo's departure, the list of people here to discuss the show is dwindling.

by Forest Shepherd Tue May 17, 2016 7:05 am

Anyway, for my part, I kind of liked parts of it.

There was definitely a lot of dumb stuff mixed in there as well though.

Standing out as the worst offenders:

Spoiler:

by chris63 Tue May 17, 2016 12:27 pm

by chris63 Tue May 17, 2016 2:55 pm

by Bluebottle Tue May 17, 2016 6:25 pm

“Barbarian cultures who don’t know how to treat women bowing in the face of superior technology and military arsenal (Dragons are basically the advanced fighter jets of the GOT universe) – does this feel familiar? She then goes from city to city freeing slaves who dutifully join her quest. Dany’s story is, at its heart, a neocon wet dream. She is Laura Bush, advocating for the invasion of Iraq under the pretext of saving its women who are desperate to live a life like hers.

I feel like we are supposed to root for Dany because she is becoming a strong woman; originally meek and abused by her brother, she outsmarts men at their own game. We are supposed to forget that she is fighting for nothing more than her own sense of entitlement to the throne, like some upper-class brat who loses her family’s fortune and eventually manages to become CEO of her own corporation. Somehow all the grateful brown people she liberates are happy to march behind her for the sake of an imperial project that they have no stake in. Oh – like every good white liberal, she manages to pick up a Black Best Friend (Missandei) along the way:

The Season 3 finale took things to the next level; after liberating another city of slaves, Dany waits to see whether she will be greeted as a liberator or conqueror. (the writers try to get off the hook by acknowledging that she is aware of the difference). In fact, she gets a better deal – they claim her as their ‘Mother.’ She ends up crowdsurfing over the brown people like some kind of Tagaryan Bono with all of the smug satisfaction of a gap-year backpacker that has just built an orphanage in a village somewhere.”

—Aamer Rahman

http://io9.gizmodo.com/daenerys-whole-storyline-on-game-of-thrones-is-messed-513189766

by Bluebottle Tue May 17, 2016 6:38 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/144457133327/got-6x04-musings

That sounds appaulingly bad.
I don't know about paul, but you should watch along with us Bluebottle. With Eldo's departure, the list of people here to discuss the show is dwindling.

Thanks for the invitation, but I think I'm well out of it. Smile

I did take the Eldo route of avoiding the whole subject for fair while, but as the show started up again I found the whole fall out interesting to observe, and I guess that's what I'm trying to relay here. I do find it interesting that, at least I, would adjudge most of the criticism of merit, but I do find it hard to have the same strong feelings, as a lot of the critics, about it anymore.

I don't begrudge anyone liking the show, on the contrary I find it perfectly understandable as a guilty pleasure. It just doesn't live up to the standards of writing I would hop for and expect of a fantasy show on television, and particularly not as the adaptation of one of my favourite fantasy stories. (Simmilarly, while I have no strong feelings for the original story, I'll not be watching the next season of The Shannara Chronicles. (Some for the current writing in GoTs to me seems not much better than that for me, I fear.))

by halfwise Tue May 17, 2016 9:22 pm

Bluebottle wrote:
“Barbarian cultures who don’t know how to treat women bowing in the face of superior technology and military arsenal (Dragons are basically the advanced fighter jets of the GOT universe) – does this feel familiar? She then goes from city to city freeing slaves who dutifully join her quest. Dany’s story is, at its heart, a neocon wet dream. She is Laura Bush, advocating for the invasion of Iraq under the pretext of saving its women who are desperate to live a life like hers.

I feel like we are supposed to root for Dany because she is becoming a strong woman; originally meek and abused by her brother, she outsmarts men at their own game. We are supposed to forget that she is fighting for nothing more than her own sense of entitlement to the throne, like some upper-class brat who loses her family’s fortune and eventually manages to become CEO of her own corporation. Somehow all the grateful brown people she liberates are happy to march behind her for the sake of an imperial project that they have no stake in. Oh – like every good white liberal, she manages to pick up a Black Best Friend (Missandei) along the way:

The Season 3 finale took things to the next level; after liberating another city of slaves, Dany waits to see whether she will be greeted as a liberator or conqueror. (the writers try to get off the hook by acknowledging that she is aware of the difference). In fact, she gets a better deal – they claim her as their ‘Mother.’ She ends up crowdsurfing over the brown people like some kind of Tagaryan Bono with all of the smug satisfaction of a gap-year backpacker that has just built an orphanage in a village somewhere.”

—Aamer Rahman

Umm....up until the last paragraph the story is pretty identical to GRRM. So is this critic saying that GRRM wrote a neocon's wet dream?

by halfwise Tue May 17, 2016 9:34 pm

And as for Martin's conscience?

"I love all my characters so it's always hard to kill them but I know it has to be done," he explained. "I tend to think I don't kill them. The other characters kill 'em.

http://mashable.com/2016/05/17/george-r-r-martin-death-game-of-thrones/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Mashable+%28Mashable%29#6_lhmSgedOqY

by halfwise Sat May 21, 2016 4:27 am

Bluebottle wrote:Obviously I can't agree with that, as that would mean me accepting D&D "have done well by the main story lines and characters", while getting minor things wrong, which to me is about as far away from my view of this show as you probably can get. For the last season, and the current one, D&D has to my mind gotten just about everything wrong. From telling the story George wanted to tell, to telling that story well. So, as I'm sure you understand I do not agree with you on the way Georges' story is told being completely arbritrary to the quality of the product.

Now, I agree some of my statements might have been blanket in nature. And while I've already pointed out those statements weren't meant alltogether seriously, it does reflect my view of the show. Because to my mind it has issues all across the board when it comes to writing and storytelling. And to my mind it's not about whether or not someone might call you a purist. Because this show certainly has enough issues being judged on its own merits for that to actually play a decisive role. True, I will never accept the way the show tells Georges story, because every time I see it I will see the best fantasy story of modern times generally mangled and distorted, with little care, and at times directly butchered. But if I didn't have this relationship with the books, I still wouldn't enjoy this show. It would at best be a guilty pleasure. Because it really is poor.

I'd also like to remind you that I was this shows' biggest fan on this forum up until season 5. (And I read the books after season 3.)

Having seen all of season 5 now, I stand by my statement of purists being the ones upset. I think if you hadn't read the books, you wouldn't have been so bothered by season 5. The choices in Dorne were poor, but other aspects weren't handled badly at all. I still think introducing the pair of Tyrion and Varys to Maureen, though somewhat laughable, was also a good choice to keep interest in what would otherwise be a flagging storyline - the books really dragged in that dratted city. And I'll never for the life of me understand what was so horrible about Tyrion not raping a prostitute.

by Bluebottle Sat May 21, 2016 1:52 pm

Well.. wow.. I pointed out all the failings I found with season 5 at the time, I'm not going to go through that experience all over again. But if you like it, good for you. I'm certainly not begruding you enjoying the show.

halfwise wrote:And I'll never for the life of me understand what was so horrible about Tyrion not raping a prostitute.

Somehow I feel you'd say "The books are violent too.", if they had gone in the other direction..

My problem with that scene was not that there wasn't a rape. That experience is harrowing in the books. What I did react to, was how they set up a whole societal system were they specifically pointed out that the prostitutes were slaves, property, with the tatoos, and then have this prostitute, who we know is a slave from the tatoo, go and give away sex for free because our hero is just so great. The dichotomy between the two stories is a chasm here.

Game of Thrones [2] - Page 36 Tumblr_inline_noxdxgqMvs1rku3fs_540

Game of Thrones [2] - Page 36 Tumblr_inline_noxdxgqMvs1rku3fs_540

by Bluebottle Sat May 21, 2016 1:58 pm

halfwise wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:
“Barbarian cultures who don’t know how to treat women bowing in the face of superior technology and military arsenal (Dragons are basically the advanced fighter jets of the GOT universe) – does this feel familiar? She then goes from city to city freeing slaves who dutifully join her quest. Dany’s story is, at its heart, a neocon wet dream. She is Laura Bush, advocating for the invasion of Iraq under the pretext of saving its women who are desperate to live a life like hers.

I feel like we are supposed to root for Dany because she is becoming a strong woman; originally meek and abused by her brother, she outsmarts men at their own game. We are supposed to forget that she is fighting for nothing more than her own sense of entitlement to the throne, like some upper-class brat who loses her family’s fortune and eventually manages to become CEO of her own corporation. Somehow all the grateful brown people she liberates are happy to march behind her for the sake of an imperial project that they have no stake in. Oh – like every good white liberal, she manages to pick up a Black Best Friend (Missandei) along the way:

The Season 3 finale took things to the next level; after liberating another city of slaves, Dany waits to see whether she will be greeted as a liberator or conqueror. (the writers try to get off the hook by acknowledging that she is aware of the difference). In fact, she gets a better deal – they claim her as their ‘Mother.’ She ends up crowdsurfing over the brown people like some kind of Tagaryan Bono with all of the smug satisfaction of a gap-year backpacker that has just built an orphanage in a village somewhere.”

—Aamer Rahman

Umm....up until the last paragraph the story is pretty identical to GRRM. So is this critic saying that GRRM wrote a neocon's wet dream?

Well, that's certainly a criticism that could be levelled at George. So, I guess I do have to ask myself why the books doesn't leave me feeling that way.

Well, this is just my experience, of course, but I'd say it's all in the telling of the story. What, to me, the show has done, as it often does, is read the surface level of the story in the books and buy into that completely, missing all the nuance of the original.

Daenerys Targaryen: After violently conquering the cities in the (ancient and “civilized”) Slaver’s Bay, and deciding to stay and rule in Meereen, abolishes slavery, but then tries to conform to other local customs as much as possible, making compromises.

Fandom: How dare she interfere with other cultures and impose her cultural norms on the ~~(rich)~~ people of Meereen, Astapor and Yunkai, denying their rights and freedoms ~~to enslave the people from other cultures!~~ GRRM clearly meant her to represent white colonialism, George W. Bush, and Satan, rolled into one!

That's kind of it to me. In the books she maks every effort to integrate in the culture she rules, appart from slavery, to the degree that it almost ends her journey there and then. In the show, it's her way or the highway. Then they take things to the next level with introducing the concept in the third paragraph.

by Bluebottle Sat May 21, 2016 2:06 pm

Some inspiring lines of dialogue from the show so far.

“You’re a greedy bitch, you know that?”

“I can’t see.”/“That’s your problem, not mine.”

“That’s what I do. I drink and I know things.”

“I swear it by the Salt Throne”

“Do you know of any magic that could help him? Bring him back?”

“What kind of god would have a pecker that small?”

“It’s a good thing you’re not a boy anymore. Because you have no cock.”

“If I lost my cock, I’d drink all the time.”

“Where’s my sister?”/“I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.”

“A wise man once said the true history of the world is the history of great conversations in elegant rooms.”/“Who said this?”/“Me.”

“That is one trial by combat I look forward to watching.”

“The same women who murdered Myrcella have overthrown House Martell and taken control of Dorne.”

“That can’t be everyone you want to kill. Are you sure you’re not forgetting someone?”

“Fuck kneeling and fuck oaths. I’ve got a gift for you.”

“Whatever you want. You have Castle Black. My watch is ended.”

“I was awful, just admit it.”

“What happened to the princess?”/ “I saw what happened. I saw Stannis’ forces defeated in the field.”

“Just because your master has silver hair and tits doesn’t mean she’s not a master.”

“But as a wise man once said, ‘we make peace with our enemies, not our friends.’”

“You were a spoiled little cunt, but you were my brother and I risked everything for you and you betrayed me.”

“You’re the son of the last true Warden of the North. Northern families are loyal. They’ll fight for you if you ask.”

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/144662778187/what-pieces-of-dialogue-have-been-the-worst-so-far

by halfwise Sat May 21, 2016 2:28 pm

I could make a list of lines straight from the book that sound the same. You've just colored your opinion ahead of time.

Oh, the show undoubtably lost a great deal of subtlety in adaptation. I'll not defend that, with Dorne being the greatest example. But if you manage to avoid comparison to the books I think they mainly can be accused of mediocrity; the audience is not challenged by humdrum tropes that have been passed through the decades as opposed to the more nuanced glimpses GRRM provides.

But nuance is hard, and I give them credit for having captured some of it. I think the levels of scorn heaped upon them is from people who were expecting exactly the books. This was an easier request for LotR than for GoT, which is far more complicated.

And yet there is nuance even in the parts they made up. When Stannis burned his daughter (a departure from character that he pays for), we hear that half the troops deserted, no comment needed. When he meets Brienne, we might expect him to rage at her for taking his brother's side, but instead - recognizing that the tide of defeat has overtaken him - we get a resigned "do your duty". I wouldn't say this is better than the drums in the snow we get from the book, but it's spare, creditable writing that treats the audience with respect.

Of course we get more of their sad excuse for Sand Snakes in that episode as well, so I'm not heaping pure praise on them.

by Bluebottle Sat May 21, 2016 3:28 pm

I think I'll let this sum up my feelings for the Stannis storyline..

http://captainofalltheships.tumblr.com/post/121075730027/chrys-watches-got-season-5-episode-9
http://captainofalltheships.tumblr.com/post/121639668347/chrys-watches-got-season-5-finale

by halfwise Sat May 21, 2016 3:53 pm

by Ringdrotten Sat May 21, 2016 5:22 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Some inspiring lines of dialogue from the show so far.

“You’re a greedy bitch, you know that?”

“I can’t see.”/“That’s your problem, not mine.”

“That’s what I do. I drink and I know things.”

“I swear it by the Salt Throne”

“Do you know of any magic that could help him? Bring him back?”

“What kind of god would have a pecker that small?”

“It’s a good thing you’re not a boy anymore. Because you have no cock.”

“If I lost my cock, I’d drink all the time.”

“Where’s my sister?”/“I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.”

“A wise man once said the true history of the world is the history of great conversations in elegant rooms.”/“Who said this?”/“Me.”

“That is one trial by combat I look forward to watching.”

“The same women who murdered Myrcella have overthrown House Martell and taken control of Dorne.”

“That can’t be everyone you want to kill. Are you sure you’re not forgetting someone?”

“Fuck kneeling and fuck oaths. I’ve got a gift for you.”

“Whatever you want. You have Castle Black. My watch is ended.”

“I was awful, just admit it.”

“What happened to the princess?”/ “I saw what happened. I saw Stannis’ forces defeated in the field.”

“Just because your master has silver hair and tits doesn’t mean she’s not a master.”

“But as a wise man once said, ‘we make peace with our enemies, not our friends.’”

“You were a spoiled little cunt, but you were my brother and I risked everything for you and you betrayed me.”

“You’re the son of the last true Warden of the North. Northern families are loyal. They’ll fight for you if you ask.”
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/144662778187/what-pieces-of-dialogue-have-been-the-worst-so-far

Much of that is pretty stupid, and much of it could just as well have been in the books. If that's the worst you can come up with on season 6, I suggest you watch the episodes - the dialogue isn't the problem, the fucked-up storyline is. I still enjoy watching it, though Laughing

by Bluebottle Sat May 21, 2016 5:39 pm

Oh, I haven't watched a second of it. Razz

Someone else compiled that.

Can't help but giggle at "Salt Throne" though. That's a fuck you to George right there.

by Ringdrotten Sat May 21, 2016 6:03 pm

Bluebottle wrote:That's a fuck you to George right there.

By now the whole show is, but that doesn't mean it isn't entertaining Wink