Game of Thrones [2]

Radaghast wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:God, that was.. appalling is to kind a word.

I'm not even sure what to say.. the writing?!... Dorne.. "... bad pussy." might be the singularily worst piece of writing, directing and acting I've seen in a long time. I have no idea what they could have liked about the storyline. Let's kill the Queens daughter just when we've sent of the heir of Dorne to Kings Landing effectively as a hostage. For the watch became a power grab by Alliser Thorne. Shame Jon only told Sam about what happened at Hardhome or the army of the dead, if he had told everyone his brothers might have had some understanding for him and his actions. And of course Jons last words are Olly, the most important character at the wall, remember, not Ghost, who only does rape protection now it seems. Winterfell.. the less said the better. Sansa and Theon jumping from the same height that just killed Myranda.. Of course there is going to be a huge snowdrift or something. It's not like all the snow is melting.. And I guess it's pretty much comfirmed now that in their heads this is Ramsays storyline. God, I really missed his point of view chapters in the books.. Meereen is going to be run by thee foreigners.. that is going to go great. But at least we had Varys to remind us how wonderful Tyrion is.. again. Oh, where did he come from? He just snuck behind the backs of all those Unsullied that was guarding Tyrion. The Unsullied? You know hte ones who are the most easily defeatable in the world, easily being mowed down by untrained former slavers with short knives, or the worlds best infantry, able to easily subdue a rioting city, depending on the needs of the plot. Daenerys, who now magically is wearing pants and comfortable looking shoes for walking, decides to leave Drogon and walk back to Meereen because she needs to get there NOW, GOD DAMN IT. Good thing that Khalesar knew who she was, seeing as they all decided to do this well coreographed riding in a huge circle around her thing.

I'm not sure I can forgive them for what they did to Stannis. It's been pretty clear that they've hated his character for a while, and used their view of him to shape the writing of his character. But it's on ething to set him up as the villain of the piece. He could have been a great villain of the piece, even if making him that looses the very greyness George is trying to insdtill in the stroy. But this was just a study in humiliation. You burn your daugther for no reason, oh, suddenly it's a bit warmer it was totally worth it. Then his men abandons him, his wife hangs herself, Mellisandre abandons him, on the last horse in the camp, who the people who took all the horses, for the second week runing, fortunately left her,.. because...? But good thing they had one of the great military commanders of Westeros on hand to order a rag tag march on a castle. Scouts? What are scouts? And then he's apparently executed on the authority of a dead younger brother who usurped his rightful place on the throne. Character assasination: Completed.

Honestly, I'm not sure I'll bother with next season. If people who have shared my misgivings about this one says it's a return to form, maybe I'll give it another chance. As things stand it's lost most of the appeal I ever saw in it. And the building blocks were there for something special, even in as much (often unfairly) maligned books as aFfCs and aDwDs. Winds of Winter can't be that far off. I'll rather look forward to that.

Your thoughts on this season are uncannily close to mine

It's odd that, isn't it. But, yeah, as poor as this last season was, particularly from a storytelling perspective, I'm surprised at the amount of people who are seemingly still enjoying it. Then I ponder how many people avidly follow other things I consider inexcusably poor, and.. that's what the show is now. A pop culture phenomenon. Something you can only enjoy if you don't think about it too much. The shame is it could have been so much more. The inexcusable thing is that their subject matter is anything but that.

Bluebottle wrote:I'm surprised people still have the energy and bother to debate this stuff. I'm not sure I want to jump back into it too much considering how much of a train wreck I found season 5, but here's my thoughts on the Sansa thing back when it happened, anyway.

Well, I came late to the party, though my energy is beginning to wane. But I think I've made my point enough times

http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t958p735-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-2#172864

Well said. Thanks for posting.

Bluebottle wrote:

Radaghast wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:http://www.salon.com/2015/06/14/stop_defending_game_of_thrones_how_hbo_gutted_the_stories_i_love/

Wow.

Before I even read that, it looks like an article I will heartily agree with

Think you might like this one too. It's one that has got closest to dissecting the series issues for me.

Bluebottle wrote:I think this review gets pretty close to the heart of the problems the show has.

Yes, of course, Benioff and Weiss don’t know how to deal with rape in a meaningful manner. But they don’t know how to deal with anything in a meaningful manner either. Have you seen the way they deal with death, murder, revenge, punishment, war, love, sex, religion, faith, honor, duty, emotions, slavery, responsibility, parenthood, poverty? Not a bit better than with rape. They are still to meet a sensitive issue they understand, let alone address in a competent way.

When you’re repetitive in a short form of fiction, it’s clumsy and silly. When you’re repetitive in a huge saga, it can be tiring and draining. But when you’re repetitive in an adaptation of the source material that is anything but repetitive, it’s outright pathetic. And when the repetition includes sensitive matters like violence, it’s also insulting and tasteless.

Benioff and Weiss are charlatans, first and foremost. It is, I believe, wrong to ascribe sexism or misogyny to them. Like countless talentless writers, they are even less competent when they write characters of the opposite gender, and generally, characters whose experience they didn’t share personally. And, all in all, they’re no fundamentally better when dealing with male characters and their arcs. Just recall the ridiculous Jon arc in season 2, when his brilliant mission with Qhorin in the books was completely ruined just so he can flirt with and be dumb in comparison to Ygritte. Just look at TV Stannis and everything that happened to him whenever his scenes strayed away from the source material.

Benioff and Weiss endless incompetence suggests privileged backgrounds, which are typically associated with political correctness. Their rare but insightful political comments seem to point in the direction of progressivism as their real-life mindset. All of which could mean that they are not consciously mistreating women or homosexuals (or almost any other group, really) in their writing, but it is the product of their drastic lack of skill and craft.

Perhaps they are not Tywins of the House HBO, in that there is not some dark mission behind their missteps and failings. Perhaps they’re also not Ramsays, because they’re not even enjoying all the damage they’ve inflicted. Perhaps they really are like Theon Greyjoy when he, per some wild chance, took Winterfell under his command: murdering little children, just so they can appear competent and to hide their shortcomings.

https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/

"charlatans"

Love it

Bluebottle wrote:It's odd that, isn't it. But, yeah, as poor as this last season was, particularly from a storytelling perspective, I'm surprised at the amount of people who are seemingly still enjoying it. Then I ponder how many people avidly follow other things I consider inexcusably poor, and.. that's what the show is now. A pop culture phenomenon. Something you can only enjoy if you don't think about it too much. The shame is it could have been so much more. The inexcusable thing is that their subject matter is anything but that.

Exactly. And, for me, there are parallels to and reminiscences of the LotR film trilogy. As with LotR (and the first time I saw it) I'm amazed at the number of times I've watched scene on the TV show and took it for granted that the book event was the same or similar only to find out my memory had failed me and the scene was largely reworked. I think it's time to read the books for a third time, even if it means having to endure the Greyjoys again And also try to forget this show.

Yay for more book reading. You should really try the combined reading order for A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons. It makes the reading experience a lot more enjoyable. I tried it on my second reading and never looked back.

Bluebottle wrote:Yay for more book reading. You should really try the combined reading order for A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons. It makes the reading experience a lot more enjoyable. I tried it on my second reading and never looked back.

Sounds promising. What's the order?

Love the new avatar, Raddy.

And, please, did anyone catch why the hell Cersei summoned Littlefinger at all? When she told Qyburn to send a message, she insisted for Littlefinger to come immediately. But what was so important? She just wanted to hear him say that the knights of the Vale are loyal to the Iron Throne? Is that the reason Littlefinger had to leave Sansa in Winterfell?

https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/

This occurred to me too. This doesn't seem clear to me, even now. Cerise called for Littlefinger, yet it is he that has information to impart to her. Is this somehow part of his plan? To count on being summoned by Cersei?

There's some pretty terrible writing going on here, whatever the case may be.

bungobaggins wrote:Love the new avatar,  Raddy.

Thanks, bungo!

Radaghast wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:Yay for more book reading. You should really try the combined reading order for A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons. It makes the reading experience a lot more enjoyable. I tried it on my second reading and never looked back.

Sounds promising. What's the order?

Spoiler:

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

Reading he books in that way really changed my view of them in a positive way. You begin to think of them as just one great book you know. And in that context the scope of the storytelling, which has admittedly slowed down compared to the first three books in the series, becomes quite breathtaking.

It's still missing the end which was moved to Winds, but apart from that it's become my favourite part of the series.

Radaghast wrote:

https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/

From the above blog:

And, please, did anyone catch why the hell Cersei summoned Littlefinger at all? When she told Qyburn to send a message, she insisted for Littlefinger to come immediately. But what was so important? She just wanted to hear him say that the knights of the Vale are loyal to the Iron Throne? Is that the reason Littlefinger had to leave Sansa in Winterfell?

This occurred to me too. This doesn't seem clear to me, even now. Cerise called for Littlefinger, yet it is he that has information to impart to her. Is this somehow part of his plan? To count on being summoned by Cersei?

There's some pretty terrible writing going on here, whatever the case may be.

To put it mildly.

pretty impressive bit of stonewalling from you two. my compliments.

Well, as I said, there're only so many times I can repeat my point before I get tired. If we disagree, we disagree

Bluebottle wrote:

Radaghast wrote:

https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/

From the above blog:

And, please, did anyone catch why the hell Cersei summoned Littlefinger at all? When she told Qyburn to send a message, she insisted for Littlefinger to come immediately. But what was so important? She just wanted to hear him say that the knights of the Vale are loyal to the Iron Throne? Is that the reason Littlefinger had to leave Sansa in Winterfell?

This occurred to me too. This doesn't seem clear to me, even now. Cerise called for Littlefinger, yet it is he that has information to impart to her. Is this somehow part of his plan? To count on being summoned by Cersei?

There's some pretty terrible writing going on here, whatever the case may be.

To put it mildly.

Yes. And I'm not sure I ever understood the meaning of 'charlatan' but I think that may be too mild a word as well

Bluebottle wrote:

Radaghast wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:Yay for more book reading. You should really try the combined reading order for A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons. It makes the reading experience a lot more enjoyable. I tried it on my second reading and never looked back.

Sounds promising. What's the order?

Spoiler:

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

Reading he books in that way really changed my view of them in a positive way. You begin to think of them as just one great book you know. And in that context the scope of the storytelling, which has admittedly slowed down compared to the first three books in the series, becomes quite breathtaking.

It's still missing the end which was moved to Winds, but apart from that it's become my favourite part of the series.

Cool, thanks. If I had time, I'd soooo make a pdf combining both books

I had more issues with 5 than 4 (I still fume at the very idea of Quentin Martell, even though I'm at a loss at what GRRM could have done instead ) but maybe those won't seem as bad on a second reading.

https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/

Found this via the above:

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

Mrs Figg wrote:pretty impressive bit of stonewalling from you two. my compliments.

It's a bit rich to accuse other people of stonewalling when your previous post was just "nothing you said changed my mind, so there".  At some point there's an impasse, and not all of us enjoy endlessly repeating the same assertions at each other like Petty and you do.

at least I engaged in discussion, and gave details, and gave theories which were ignored. just ignoring my posts with three foot long quotes is rude and looks like stonewalling. If you cant see that we have differing attitudes to what constitutes discussion.

Raddy and I spent much of the previous two pages going back and forth with you before the discussion reached a standstill. I'm sorry that you felt ignored; I know it was not my intention and I hope it wasn't anyone else's either.  However, this meta-discussion seems to have arrived at a similar standstill, so I'm bowing out of this thread for the time being.  You are welcome to have the last word if you like.

Mrs Figg wrote:at least I engaged in discussion, and gave details, and gave theories which were ignored. just ignoring my posts with three foot long quotes is rude and looks like stonewalling. If you cant see that we have differing attitudes to what constitutes discussion.

What do you mean ignored your "posts with three foot long quotes"? Also, saying "at least I engaged in discussion" suggests the rest of us aren't, which doesn't sound very fair.

Anyway, I could make the same case about arguments being ignored, or dismissed. But if you're looking for a rebuttal, fine, let's look at one of your last arguments:

Mrs Figg wrote:Sansa's story makes perfect sense. its so obvious I wonder anyone doesn't get it. since the tv show has diverged from the book there has been a general backlash with people blaming D&D for just continuing the themes it always had. I would wait before you make snap judgements, its ok saying it doesn't make sense over and over, but I have just given a coherent analysis of Sansa's character arc, and I haven't heard anything to make me change my mind.

It's so obvious, yet you have yet to explain how. To me, the only obvious thing is how horrible and how shockingly contrived it is. It goes directly against her progression in the book. It doesn't make sense, from any standpoint. It regresses her character, perhaps even further back than to where it was before. Her escape at the end of the episode leaves her and Theon in no better a position than they were before. Death would probably be be better, logically, because, even if the snow is deep enough to cushion them and prevent any broken bones, Ramsay can very easily track them with his hounds. Unless we can expect that epic pair of dunces, Brienne and Pod, to save them from Ramsay, his hounds and his posse. Certainly, none of Stannis's army can do it, since they've been slaughtered to a man. I could go on and on, but there's little point. Fine, you're not convinced by anything I'm saying, I can live with that. But that's a two-way street. I haven't found any of your arguments convincing and I don't think there's any argument you can make that can convince me either.

And if I elect to stop trying to convince you, how is that being rude? Are you looking to be convinced or just to be contrary? Like Eldo, I wasn't intending to be rude by not answering your posts, I was just failing to see the point and, frankly, starting to feel a bit exasperated.

But, for the hell of it, here's another go.

Mrs Figg wrote:more thoughts on Sansa. throughout her life she has been used abused and manipulated by other people, Geoffrey, Cercei, Littlefinger, she has drifted along with the tide only occasionally standing up for what is right, and when she does she is generally punished for it. she has had to pretend she is someone else in the eyrie, so kind of already taking on a part of the Jayne Poole story, although she has to pretend she isn't a Stark. so used and abused she has come to the end of the road, either to jump into a new life or die. There was no point in introducing a secondary character when they could more fully tell Sansa's story, even though it diverges from the book.

Not quite. Firstly, her spate of misfortune was a relatively recent event and occurred within a relatively short time. It did not occur throughout her life, the majority of which was a happy one. Secondly, her assumed identity has absolutely no parallel with Jeyne Poole's false identity. Her false identity is to help keep her alive, while Jeyne Poole's false identity is created to strengthen the position of others (and which does nothing at all to preserve Jeyne's life, or at least improve the quality of it). Also, Sansa's identity is exposed when she's given to the Boltons, not hidden to preserve her life. So, again, not seeing any parallels between her and Jeyne. It all goes precisely opposite to the logical event in the books. By combining Sansa's fate with Jeyne's, you're not telling her story more fully, you're telling a completely different story. You're also not advancing her arc, you're regressing it, and possibly putting her in a worse position than she's ever been.

Sorry, but I find your logic deeply flawed and your argument soundly unconvincing. Aside from being disgusted by this turn of events in the show, I was also just deeply disappointed (and not just by this arc). I felt what GRRM was building in the the book was far, far superior to this, which looks and feels like pure dreck to me. GRRM's was just a flat-out better story (even if he is taking a long time to tell it). Far from being any sort of improvement, the show's Sansa arc doesn't have any intrinsic worth at all. It's just tawdry and offensive, to my (and other) eyes. And I'm saying this as someone who enjoyed the first three seasons, and some of the fourth.

I know you're not too concerned about the TV show diverging from the books (though, since you've said you've not read the books, I do think that weakens your position a bit) and I know it's not possible for a filmic medium to be 100% faithful to the source. But I strongly believe the adaptation should never willfully go directly against the source. I think it should stay true to the general storyline. Otherwise, what's the point? The adapters should probably just tell their own story.

If nothing I've typed here convinces, you, again, fine, I can deal with that. But again, that goes both ways. We can just agree to disagree and call it a debate.

One final note: I posted this link upthread but said nothing about it. Here it is again—I think it's very insightful and says a lot of things far better than I could ever hope to:

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

Eldorion wrote: You are welcome to have the last word if you like.

How come Petty never lets me have the last word? its so refreshingly unusual to have the last word.

Radaghast wrote:

(( ))

Mrs Figg wrote:

Eldorion wrote: You are welcome to have the last word if you like.

How come Petty never lets me have the last word?   its so refreshingly unusual to have the last word.  

Wait, what!?

None of that, I shall take the last word!

It is simple and straightforward:

Figgster, I cannot help but draw a correlation between your statements and position and those defenders of the Hobbit series. On the one hand we have book-readers who are unhappy with the direction the directors or showrunners have taken things, while on the other hand we have the staunch supporters of the series who justify any and all of its shortcomings. They do so mostly in ignorance of the highly superior books from which these stories have been drawn.

And so, to be blunt, go read the books! I think that will persuade you more than any discussion in this thread ever can.

I thought a couple of those middle books weren't exactly masterpieces? I heard they were tedious.

I had my issues with books four and five, believe me.  Going straight from book three (which I loved) to four almost made me abandon the series entirely.  But they are a bit better on re-reads, and I think even the first time through were better than season five (at least book five is).  Either way, their issues are different from the issues the TV series has developed.