Game of Thrones [2]

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Post by davidjoneshoward Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:32 pm

Eldorion wrote:Just to elaborate on my earlier point, ASOS was the end of the "first act" of the overall ASOIAF series (roughly where the first book would have ended if Martin had kept it a trilogy). AFFC and ADWD were the first part of the second act. This is why the idea that the series will be wrapped up in only two more books is ludicrous. Martin's pacing has gotten slower, not faster. It would have to become vastly faster to meet his current goal.

For those that don't know about this...

http://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-was-supposed-to-be-a-trilogy-2015-2?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+businessinsider%2Fthewire+%28The+Wire%29

GerorgeRRMartin wrote:
Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle characters in the drama. Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, [unclear] each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope [unclear] tapestry. Each of the [unclear] presents a major threat [unclear] of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the live [unclear] principal characters.

The first threat grows from the emnity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remain the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.
--

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, [unclear] can act on his knowledge [unclear] will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will [unclear] to [unclear] and brutal [unclear] Joffrey [unclear] still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Arya escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Ben jen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving ... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.
--

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Danerys [sic] will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by [unclear] of her life, she stumbles on a [something about dragon eggs] a young dragon will give Daenerys [unclear] bend [unclear] to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow.

[The next graph is blocked out]

But that's the second book ...

I hope you will find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

And this was written all the way back in 1993, all planned to be one big book. From all the spoilers I've read Evil or Very Mad, this REALLY strays from his future writing decisions.


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Post by halfwise Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:34 pm

At first when I read this:

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

I thought -Jon Snow Lives??!! Shocked

Then I read the rest of it and realized just how far he had strayed from his original conception. So, no spoilers here. Sad

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:38 pm

Wow, Arya was quite the love interest.

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Post by Eldorion Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:01 am

Yeah, quite a lot of has changed, in part (I imagine) because he doesn't outline his work in much detail. But considering that every part of the series has ended up longer than he envisioned, two volumes still seems pretty over-optimistic to me....
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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:17 pm

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

I REALLY hope he hasn't at least changed the importance of the 5 main characters. #jonsnowlives
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Post by Eldorion Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:59 pm

Jon has to survive so that people will care when GRRM reveals R+L=J. Razz
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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:34 pm

Razz
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Post by Ringdrotten Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:36 pm

I hope those five make it, especially Tyrion and Arya. Very excited to see what happens with Jon as well, I hope book 6 is 5000 pages long Laughing

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:41 pm

those 5 have to live otherwise it makes a mockery of caring for and going on a journey with characters from a book. I know sometimes a main character dies, like Sirius or Dumbledore, but its generally not the inner core characters, its not like Hermione or Ron, or Sam or Frodo died, which is what Martin seems to like to tease and play around with, but I find that irritating more than fresh.
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Post by Ringdrotten Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:53 pm

The Red Wedding was one such mockery, so I'll wait until the last page is read before I dare say anything for certain Wink That said, Martin is more merciful than the show-writers - there are characters (both important and unimportant) who have been killed off in the show, but still live in the books.

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Post by Eldorion Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:05 pm

Martin is definitely more willing to kill off characters than a lot of authors, but he's been pretty sparing with his major POV characters so far. Even with the Red Wedding, he ended up doing a fakeout non-death for Arya, which I think is testament to her continuing importance to the narrative and to Martin's conception of the rest of the series (or at least, how he felt while writing book three).
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Post by halfwise Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:11 am

A little tidbit to drive Blue stark, staring loony:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/04/18/game-of-thrones-the-best-changes-the-tv-series-has-made-from-the-books?page=1

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Post by Eldorion Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:53 am

I actually agree with them about the Arya and Tywin scenes from season two, those were great. Hard to go wrong having two talented actors bounce off each other in that way, but still, D&D deserve credit for making it happen. As for the rest of the list, however, it seems to reflect a very shallow and generic view of what makes for "good TV". Which is ironic, because anyone locked into that mindset before GOT started never would have greenlit the show in the first place.
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Post by Bluebottle Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:42 pm

Oh, those things are a dime a dozen. Razz

And I can't say I agree with much of what they've stated. Very Happy

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Post by halfwise Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:16 pm

I only agree with a couple of them.

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Post by davidjoneshoward Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:21 am

I just watched the first episode of S2 of GOT (something I swore not to do while still reading the 2nd book... but I broke that promise, ofc Rolling Eyes), and I was underwhelmed at best from the first half, despite the raved reviews I heard from this season. I'm just going to flat-out say it. D&D are NOT good with exposition. When they do it, for the most part they turn off characterization mode, which makes it flat, and detracting. As for the second half, it picked up the pace a bit, but could have been more cinematic (overall) and tried to world-build more in the newer areas (i.e. Dragonstone).

George RR Martin fixed all of these problems when I saw his one episode that he wrote in S1. Great characterization, witty dialogue, and all for an episode that wasn't the juiciest in plot, until he made it that way. I guess he just knows the world better Shrugging

I still hope better things from the remaining 9 episodes, but a problem with this show is that excuse seems to be often given. That it'll get better, or the plot will be full of more twists, or whatnot.


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Post by Eldorion Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:34 am

GRRM's episode in season two is quite possibly the best episode in the entire show, in part because it has all of those qualities you mentioned while also covering a good deal of interesting plot. Not necessarily a particularly "twisty" episode either.

It's been a while since I watched S2 so I can't comment in detail but I remember feeling like I'd be totally lost if I didn't have the book in the back of my mind as a guide. My mom, who hasn't read the books, did seem pretty lost at least in terms of keeping track of characters, but that might just be her. I sometimes wonder how many of the show-only viewers who do keep track of everything (of which there are plenty, I know) can do so from the show alone, versus relying on the episode guides and online encyclopedias. I don't know that I'd be able to.
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Post by Mrs Figg Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:31 pm

my favourite is season 3
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Post by Eldorion Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:53 pm

I agree; I think season three is the best overall.
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Post by chris63 Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:42 am

Game of Thrones [2] - Page 27 20.04

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Post by Eldorion Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:49 am

bounce
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Post by Bluebottle Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:15 pm

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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:57 pm

bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce WINTER IS COOOOOMMMMMIIIIIINNNNGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Bluebottle Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:57 pm

Wouldn't that be a bit explicit, even for GoTs? scratch

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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:01 pm

scratch
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