Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [5]

[Mrs Figg]

its funny how words can hurt. its only hot air after all.

[Pettytyrant101]

I just watched Frankie Boyles Election Autopsy on the iplayer.

The subject of Australia came up, as UKIP and Boris Johnston both made play during the election of adopting a similar immigration stance as Australia's point system.
Frankie's contention was that following Australia is not a good idea as its got a bit of  racism problem- now I have no idea how true this is, and anything can be shown in a particular light in the narrow confines of a tv program, but a few things in it were very, very unpleasant.

Such as up till 1968 Aborigines were classified as 'Flora and Fauna' not people   Seriously WTF!

And a more modern example came in the form of a clip from an Australian news program in which they were interviewing English twins- I will give you exactly what the female anchor said, as its beyond belief in its casual racism-

'they come from a mixed race family in the UK. Marie has taken after her Jamaican mum, with dark skin and brown eyes and curly dark hair. But Lucy got her Dad's fair skin, good on you."

I'm lost for words frankly.

So Aussie hobbits- is this typical of attitudes there? What;s going on?!! Because if a news anchor said that here its career ending.

edit add- found the clip-



Also did some digging on the flora and fauna thing and there seems some dispute over if it counted aborigines as such or not, but there was for certain a WA Department of 'Fisheries and Aborigines'!

[halfwise]

yep, such a glib comment could lose a reporter her job here too.

[malickfan]

'they come from a mixed race family in the UK. Marie has taken after her Jamaican mum, with dark skin and brown eyes and curly dark hair. But Lucy got her Dad's fair skin, good on you."

WTF.

It's kinda weird to see Franky Boyle take the moral highground...

Oddly enough the only Australians I've known personally were a mixed race couple (white husband, black Samoan wife), who worked as youth workers at the church I used to attend (about ten years ago though, definitely don't consider myself religious) I I can't recall them mentioning any difficulties back home, but I think alot of the older congregation members were a bit shocked...

[Pettytyrant101]

It's kinda weird to see Franky Boyle take the moral highground...- Malick

Although he operates towards the darker end of the comedy spectrum most of his stuff is actually a satire on hypocrisy and double standards.
He has done a couple of these type of shows where he is more just himself, rather than Frankie Boyle the act. Who as he says himself is a stage persona.

[malickfan]

It's kinda weird to see Franky Boyle take the moral highground...- Malick

Although he operates towards the darker end of the comedy spectrum most of his stuff is actually a satire on hypocrisy and double standards.
He has done a couple of these type of shows where he is more just himself, rather than Frankie Boyle the act. Who as he says himself is a stage persona.

Don't get me wrong its obvious it's a persona he puts on for the cameras (a persona I happen to love, Mock The Week was never the same after he left, it misses his edge), it's just a little odd to see the 'real' Frankie

[azriel]

I like him also, he says whats sometimes rattling around in your head, & he gets away with it.

[Pettytyrant101]

Rule 1 when going to see Frankie Boyle- dont take your kids along with you!

[Pettytyrant101]

So the ground rules for the Euro in/out referendum are taking shape.

No votes if you live work and pay your taxes here, but are from somewhere else in the EU- your banned.
But good news if you live in Gibraltar they will get to vote.
No voting for 16-17 year olds though, unlike the Scottish referendum they are not to be taken seriously it seems even though they are the ones who ill have to live with the decision.

According to Liam Fox, Tory defence secretary letting folks from the EU have a vote- "would have been an unacceptable dilution of the voice of the British people"

which is odd as the Tories were up in arms at the very hint of any mere suggestion during the Sottish referendum that English folk living in Scotland should be excluded from voting.
I don't recall the Tories claiming allowing the English to vote in it "would have been an unacceptable dilution of the voice of the Scottish people." Odd that.

[Pettytyrant101]

I don't like this at all.
It seems the government has popular support for this idea.

Something is rotten in the state of England.

When it has come to the point where 1.5 million people who live here, work here, send their kids to school here, pay their taxes into the system here, are being denied the right to vote, by the government, with popular consent, on the basis that they are foreigners, then something is seriously amiss.

This is not democracy. You cant prescribe who gets to vote based on where they were born.

I see they are also not extended the vote to 16 and 17 year olds.
So far the SNP are leading the charge against both this and the ban on EU citizens.

'The SNP's Mr Yousaf, the party's Europe minister in the Scottish parliament, urged the government to reconsider.
He told BBC News: "Excluding EU citizens, many of whom live here for a number of years, pay their taxes, their children attend local schools, to disenfranchise them over their own future in this vote is illogical, is utterly perverse and creates a democratic deficit."
He added: "We don't want to enter into the rhetoric of division and I think that's exactly what this franchise aims to do."
The party's Westminster leader Angus Robertson also called for the voting age to be lowered for the referendum.
He said: "Young people are our future. It is their UK - and their Europe - so they must have their say."- BBC

Labour are also calling for the voting age to be 16, but they seem to be going along with the no EU citizen thing.

[Mrs Figg]

So the ground rules for the Euro in/out referendum are taking shape.

No votes if you live work and pay your taxes here, but are from somewhere else in the EU- your banned.
But good news if you live in Gibraltar they will get to vote.
No voting for 16-17 year olds though, unlike the Scottish referendum they are not to be taken seriously it seems even though they are the ones who ill have to live with the decision.

According to Liam Fox, Tory defence secretary letting folks from the EU have a vote- "would have been an unacceptable dilution of the voice of the British people"

which is odd as the Tories were up in arms at the very hint of any mere suggestion during the Sottish referendum that English folk living in Scotland should be excluded from voting.
I don't recall the Tories claiming allowing the English to vote in it "would have been an unacceptable dilution of the voice of the Scottish people." Odd that.

its not comparable. people from the EU are NOT British. only BRITISH  people should be allowed to vote. Europeans are going to obviously vote to stay into the EU thus scewing the vote to one side. its just sensible to avoid that scenario that down the line somebody calls it vote rigging. Only people born here should be allowed to vote, or with full citizenship. Salmond getting 16 year old to vote was merely a publicity stunt. You get to vote when you are 18, end of story. switching the goalposts for political expediency is rubbish.

[Mrs Figg]

I don't like this at all.
It seems the government has popular support for this idea.

Something is rotten in the state of England.

When it has come to the point where 1.5 million people who live here, work here, send their kids to school here, pay their taxes into the system here, are being denied the right to vote, by the government, with popular consent, on the basis that they are foreigners, then something is seriously amiss.

This is not democracy. You cant prescribe who gets to vote based on where they were born.

I see they are also not extended the vote to 16 and 17 year olds.
So far the SNP are leading the charge against both this and the ban on EU citizens.

'The SNP's Mr Yousaf, the party's Europe minister in the Scottish parliament, urged the government to reconsider.
He told BBC News: "Excluding EU citizens, many of whom live here for a number of years, pay their taxes, their children attend local schools, to disenfranchise them over their own future in this vote is illogical, is utterly perverse and creates a democratic deficit."
He added: "We don't want to enter into the rhetoric of division and I think that's exactly what this franchise aims to do."
The party's Westminster leader Angus Robertson also called for the voting age to be lowered for the referendum.
He said: "Young people are our future. It is their UK - and their Europe - so they must have their say."- BBC

Labour are also calling for the voting age to be 16, but they seem to be going along with the no EU citizen thing.

what utter over the top tosh. The vote is for BRITISH people to decide what happens in BRITAIN what the fuck have foreigners got to do with it? most EU migrants come here to work and have their homes in their homes of origin, why should economic migrants have a say in the democratic process? its ridiculous to suggest otherwise. If I want to go to work in France and they have a referendum on whether they leave the EU, I don't have the right to vote on this and rightly so, it not being my country of birth. If however I become a French citizen, then and only then can I vote. saying that something is rotten in England is just a huge pile of xenophobic crap as per usual.

[Pettytyrant101]

So if during the Scottish referendum the SNP had demanded as a condition that anyone of English birth, living in Scotland, was not allowed to vote, you would have been fine with that?
And to parody Redwoods words, it "would have been an unacceptable dilution of the voice of the Scottish people"?

"people from the EU are NOT British. only BRITISH people should be allowed to vote."

It is those sort of sentiments which are, quite frankly, scaring the crap out of me about the mood in England right now.

In the Scottish referendum we were asked to vote on something of which membership of Europe was but one part. Now we are telling people who got to vote in that referendum that in this referendum, on the much smaller matter of Europe alone, they are to be denied their vote?
And for what reason. That they are not British enough?

[Mrs Figg]

what on earth are you chundering on about? whats scary about Europeans not being British. they aren't they get to decide things in their OWN countries. whats scary about only allowing people who were born in Britain the right to vote. Have it your way and any Tom Dick and Harry who happen to be floating about has the right to decide what happens in MY country. are you fucking kidding me or are you so blinkered you cant see that you are guilty of the xenophobia you accuse me of.

the Guardian
EU referendum: David Cameron's rules are a 'democratic disgrace', says French-born Scottish politician set to be denied a vote that says it all. the auld alliance any excuse for a moan at zee eengleesh barstards. get a grip.

[Pettytyrant101]

EU citizens got to vote in the Sottish referendum, and now they are being told they can vote on the future of Scotland but not on Europe.
That's not democratic. Nor does make sense as the issue of Europe was a sub part of the independence vote. And they got to vote in that.
A vote whose rules were drawn up jointly by Cameron and Salmond.

16 and 17 year olds more than proved themselves capable in the Scottish referendum, they took it more seriously and debated the issues more than many adults I know. Nor was it a publicity stunt, the principle of the voting age being 16 at all elections was unanimously passed in the Scottish Parliament two years before the referendum even happened.
At 16 society says that you can get married, you can have sex and start a family, you can join the armed forces, you can pay taxes, but you cant be trusted to vote?


"they aren't they get to decide things in their OWN countries."

So lets take an example- you are a young Polish women, you took advantage of freedom of movement to come and work in the UK in a minimum wage job, but its better than pay back home, and your used to being frugal and you squirrel some away as you go- you have been living here for five years now, you've done all right, moved up a pay grade, you rent a flat, you pay taxes, you can vote in local elections and (ironically) in European elections, and if you are in Scotland you got to vote in the independence referendum too, you have got engaged, and you are pregnant, you intend to start a family and send your kids to the local school. The EU referendum comes up and you are told you aren't British enough to vote, you are still viewed by the nation as a foreigner, EU citizen, and as such your right to vote is taken away for this referendum.
You think that is either fair, or the right message to send?

[Mrs Figg]

This is absolutely no different than the rules governing a general election where British people of 18 and over get to vote. the only people bellyaching are a few malcontents turning a non issue into something sinister. its just dirty tricks.

[Pettytyrant101]

This is absolutely no different than the rules governing a general election- Figg

It is different, we are allowing people to vote who don't get to vote in a general election- 'Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be allowed to vote although they cannot participate in general elections'- and we are denying a vote to people who voted in the Scottish referendum under rules Cameron was happy to agree to then.

If there are dirty tricks its not on the side of those being denied the right to vote on a subject whose outcome will effect them directly more than most..

[Mrs Figg]

so are you saying the rules governing a general election are not democratic? because they are the same. either they are or they aren't. Gibraltar probably has a good case as its British territory, maybe the Faulklands can vote as well. They are British citizens. EU citizens are not. its not hard to understand.

[Pettytyrant101]

because they are the same.- Figg

I just demonstrated that they are not the same, they have extended who can vote to beyond those eligible for a general election, but curbed it for EU citizens.
And it's not a general election, its a referendum, and traditionally UK referendums have been based off the model of local and European not general elections for eligibility. This is the first time ever its been based on a general election, except they've made exceptions to include people they want of course.

I don't understand why you think someone who lives here, works here, pay taxes here, should not be allowed to vote here.
If Cameron believes this why did he agree to EU citizens voting in the Scottish referendum where membership of the EU was only one aspect?
And how can it be fair to turn to those exact same people now and say you cant vote this time?

[Mrs Figg]

and before you go on what about the millions of English people who DIDNT GET TO VOTE on the Scottish referendum, we were excluded and it most definitely would affect our lives. so your criticisms ring hollow. where's your democracy now. I live and pay taxes in England why didn't I get to vote on Scottish referendum. it seems the gvt is undemocratic when it suits you.

[Pettytyrant101]

You didn't get to vote because the form of the election followed the precedents for a referendum- those eligible was based off the local election electoral role- if you were eligible to vote in Scotland, regardless of where you were from you got a vote.
You didn't because you aren't on the Scottish electoral role for local elections- nor did Scots living outside of Scotland get a vote who were likewise not on the electoral role.
It was entirely fair and balanced. If you, an English person, had been living here at the time you would have got to vote.
But if we apply the same logic being applied here to EU members, you would have been denied the vote in Scotland solely on the basis of you being English.
And had that actually happened I am pretty damned sure you would have cried foul very loudly indeed and accused the SNP of trying to exclude and marginalise the English and create divisions, as well as trying to rig the vote.

The only change made was to lower the voting age to sixteen- the Scottish Parliament doesn't have the devolved powers to do it at national level for General Elections, but next years Scottish elections are expected by everyone to be 16 and over, as no one can deny the participation or interest shown by that age group  after the referendum when they were given the chance.

And comments like John Redwoods that 16 and 17 year olds shouldn't get the vote because "they aren't interested in Europe" is as ignorant as it is insulting.

[malickfan]

[quote][And comments like John Redwoods that 16 and 17 year olds shouldn't get the vote because "they aren't interested in Europe" is as ignorant as it is insulting/quote]

Speaking from personal experience, the sad truth is most 16-17 year olds in England don't care or know much about politics anyway, very few of the students I knew at college were registered back in 2010.

I mostly agree with Figgs on this one, Scotlands future was decided by the scots, the Uk's future should be primarily be decided by its citizens.

[Pettytyrant101]

Scotlands future was decided by the scots- Malick

But thats my point- no, it wasn't- it was decided by anyone living here and eligible to vote in a local elections- Scots, English, Irish, Welsh, Indian, Pakistani, Iranians, even EU citizens, wherever you were from if you were resident and entitled to vote you got to vote.
No one was barred from voting based solely on where they originated from.


"the sad truth is most 16-17 year olds in England don't care or know much about politics anyway"

People used to say that here too, after we trusted them enough to let them try, no one says it now.

[malickfan]

Fair point, but an independent Scotland wanted to stay in the EU and to increase immigration, England has seen a far higher proportion of immigration and most of the opposition to the EU seems to come from the right wing of the English press, I guess its partly media pressure and partly the Tories being tories. There's what 4/5 million Eu citizens in the Uk? that could be a significant margin in the vote, what if the majority of Brits voted yes, but No won because of EU citizen votes?

People used to say that here too, after we trusted them enough to let them try, no one says it now

Fair point, but I think the chances of Scotland leaving the UK were higher than us leaving the EU anyway, at least you had some idea of what the SNP had already achieved, with a referendum on the EU everyone under the age of 58 will be in the same boat. I honestly don't think many young people in England give a shit about Politics to be honest, I only voted because I felt I had to vote for someone, not because I really trusted any of the parties or felt my vote would make a difference (it didn't come close to it as it turned out )

[Pettytyrant101]

They reckon its about 1.5 million EU residents here who will be denied a vote.
And the same argument held true of the Scottish referendum, had it been just a little closer the winning difference could have been English people living here who voted No.
But the SNP didn't try to stop English folk from getting the vote on the basis they weren't Scottish- its the prinicple of fairness and equality in voting.