continuing proofs America is wacko [3]

if I find a sick or injured animal that needs to be euthanized I'd much rather use a gun than a knife. It's just quicker and kinder. - David

{{These sort of circumstances agree, better to have an knife ideally a gun. I sadly once had to end the suffering of a badly injured animal at the roadside, but I had neither gun nor knife and had to use my hands and snap its neck. I wouldnt want to have to do that again.
I have never had a problem with guns in the righ tplaces. Farmers have always had a need for them and a legal right to them here, as to groundsmen on large estates, and on hunting estates.

Its joe blogs folk, like me, who have no real training no real idea what Im doing and has no practical reason for owning a lethal weapon I dont think should be able to buy guns- you want to play with guns, join a gun club and shoot on official land for shooting on.

But these sort of instances are bound to happen when both civilians and police are armed. Your police suspect a lethal threat in every situation because they never know who has the guns. Makes for a totally different attitude and mood to policing. }}}

Though I can't watch the video, I can't disagree with anything you said Petty.

Here's another thorny problem we have over here: there are something like 20 million military veterans who are trained in using firearms, and the firearm they're most comfortable with is the assault rifle. I totally understand and respect their feelings of being safer when they have the gun they were trained on close at hand. My Dad was the same way. But on the national level, 10's of millions of assault rifles in the civilian population is kind of a problem....

there are something like 20 million military veterans who are trained in using firearms- David

{{True, but what practical reason is there for needing an assault rifle in civilian life? I've managed to get to my mid-forties and not once in my life have I ever found myself in a position where I thought 'I really need an assault rifle for this.' I suspect that the average American also does not often find themselves in situations where they feel the need for an assault rifle either and yet you can go buy them out a shop while your getting your groceries! That's just madness, collective insanity.}}}}

You don't live in the wild west.  Whether they actually do or not, many Americans feel they live in the wild west.

(I feel allowing assault weapons in the hands of civilians is insanity as well, but there's reasons many don't see it that way.)

Whether they actually do or not, many Americans feel they live in the wild west.- Halfy

{{Is that not you just defining for me 'collective insanity?' }}}

I think Dave can fill you in on whether that's insanity or not.

{{{My money is on Dave having had a need for a shotgun, maybe a rifle if he hunts or has longer range vermin to deal with, but never once thinking to himself I 'wish I had an assault rifle for this.' }}}

He's already said he understands why veterans would feel more comfortable with a weapon they were familiar with. Not that any of us are comfortable with them having them, but it's not entirely crazy.

I'm happy to define war as collective insanity, and every participant gets to take home a little piece as a memento (shell shock, combat fatigue, PTSD, whatever you want to call it.) Hypervigilance, depression, paranoia and a host of other symptoms. Not necessarily the people who ought to be armed, for their own good or the good of their families and friends, but often the people who derive the most security from having a well-cleaned firearm near the bed (as my Dad always did). I completely get it. Both sides of it.

Fortunately vets from WWII and the Korean War mostly used bolt action rifles with small magazines for reliability in harsh conditions. That's what they trained on, so that's what gave them the most security. But from Vietnam on, soldiers have mostly trained with M16's, and for me that seems to explain the explosion of interest in owning automatic assault weapons.
[along with the gun industry paying for product placement in major motion pictures and video games of course. You can't reasonably ignore the power of a modern marketing campaign by the gun industry. That's a another type of insanity... ]

{{I understand the sense of security a veteran gets that way, but I'm sorry, having hundreds of thousands of assault weapons in society and available to buy is way worse than vets having to put up with not having their pet gun by their side.
Vets here don't get to bring their guns home with them, they seem to cope with it.
If they have such a need for security it requires an assault rile by their side to quell then what they need is mental health help. Something poorly provided in my view in all countries for their vets, but from what I can tell, particularly in the US.

Just letting them keep deadly weapons is not a sane answer and is no excuse for also selling them to the general public, that is also obviously insane. }}}

I have to agree Petty the last thing a person with mental health issues needs is a gun. You need to give them support and understanding not a reminder of violence or the means to hurt themselves. But then again I am not an expert and this is just what I think is common sense.

what dark days of violence and dread...

While I'm not a lover of weapons used to harm others and if I could wave a magic wand and cause All guns to go away I would.

But the reality is such that they are with us. If you made a law to take them away only Law abiding people would forfeit them hence only criminals would have them.

I know Many good men and women who have guns and I'm glad they do. I wish more good people did.

Of course we don't want bad guys to have them...but how can we prevent criminals from getting them?
Where there is money there is a way to get what you want.

Of course there are people who shouldn't be sold them because of a history of mental or other problems.

I believe that if a criminal had no fear that the person they re contemplating robbing or burglarizing or raping might have a gun that crime would be more- not less common.

It is our right to protect ourselves from brutes and criminals who would do us harm. How can a ninety pound woman protect herself un armed?

With a cell phone to call 911 so the ambulance can find her? The police can't save her or him. It is your right and duty to protect yourself I feel.

Of course good people even sometimes go bad and harm others...
Perhaps owning a weapon means your chances of harming yourself or a loved one is higher than if you didn't...

I know it is a complex and emotional issue with widely varying reasonable opinions...

I believe that even a weak little old grandma deserves to be able to protect herself... all legally qualifying americans can. I choose to retain that right

I'm not a big gun owner or have I touched one in decades. I don't hunt. I do rather enjoy target shooting and bow n arrow too.
It is fun to shoot targets  I feel.

I am a peace loving man and since I can't make them all go away I will try to retain the right to be able to use whatever legal means available to protect my family freinds and self from bad people. The lesser of evils in my view.

Of course crazy people will continue to harm innocent people which is tragic and ugly. But, no law could stop that. Even if no guns existed they would find a way to do harm just the same.

The american founders thought it wise for the citizens to be armed. Not so they could eat, that's a given. They thought we should be able to protect ourselves from tyrants, even in the guise of our own leaders and government.

My thoughts likely will prove unpopular but I felt the need to share them.

Peace and long happy lives to you all.

{{Hi Music   - good to see you about again.

Now, being a crabbit bugger, let me disagree with most of what you said!  

'If you made a law to take them away only Law abiding people would forfeit them hence only criminals would have them.'

To start with yes- though you'd be surprised- both knife and gun amnesties happen here every so often and it amazing how much stuff gets anonymously handed in.
Once you ban guns then you can start taking them off criminals as you catch them, and if you cant buy a replacement it gets much harder for crims to replace their guns once they lose them.
Would take decades, but eventually you would get the gun numbers under some control.

Its worked elsewhere, such as Australia.
Even the UK used to have a right to guns, well not a right, just not a law to stop you. Took a long time to get to where we are now.

'I believe that if a criminal had no fear that the person they re contemplating robbing or burglarizing or raping might have a gun that crime would be more- not less common.'

I dont see evidence of that here. Almost no one here has a gun, does not make me feel vulnerable to criminals though. Just means chances of the robber having a gun are almost zero too, so robbery instead of being a cowardly act committed at gun point, requires a bit of bravery as you have to get up close to the person your robbing. Most criminals are not brave enough. They are looking for the easy option, such as just pointing a gun at someone and taking all their stuff.

'How can a ninety pound woman protect herself un armed?'

Seems to work most other places. The aim is to get to a society where a women should not have to be thinking 'how do I defend myself' every time she leaves her home.

Which is another thing thats more an impression about the US and guns than anything else- its uncivilised, its primitive, backwards. Third world stuff.

'It is fun to shoot targets  I feel. '

Agreed, I shot 2.2 rifles in my youth. Nothing wrong with gun clubs with secured weaponry and ammo and trainers on hand.
Farmers need guns to do ther job, as do grounds keepers and those who cull deer ect. There are legitimate reasons for a gun where its a tool necessary for a job, but thats it.

'no law could stop that. Even if no guns existed they would find a way to do harm just the same.'

True. But its a lot harder to kill a room full of people in just a few moments with a bat or a knife than an assault rifle.


'The american founders thought it wise for the citizens to be armed. Not so they could eat, that's a given. They thought we should be able to protect ourselves from tyrants, even in the guise of our own leaders and government. '

For a nation that likes to boast its the worlds greatest democracy you have very little faith in actual democracy. The whole point of democracy, the whole reason for its existence, is that its a way for the people to change leaders without having to resort to violence, you use the ballot instead.
The idea you need guns to protect yourself against your own government in a democracy seems like a bad joke to me. Two completely contradictory ideas.

America has a choice on guns, either get a grip on the situation, or accept that every few months, a school, mall, public event is going to be the scene of a random massacre by some gun totting nutter.
I don't know about Americans but as someone looking in from the outside, in my own lifetime I have long since lost count of how often these atrocities of shooters gunning down people in public places have occurred in the US. Too many to count.

I can tell you how often its happened in my own country in my lifetime- once- Dunblane when I was a kid, and after that what few loop holes left in guns law were firmly closed (you cant even own an air rifle here). But it hasn't happened again since.

In the same time frame, even allowing for population difference and just taking it as a percentage number, there have been dozens, of such horrible instances in the US. All those lives taken, all that grief, all that pain, all that suffering. All avoidable if the US would just grasp the nettle for once and grow up as a nation and stop acting like the social norms of 1890 still apply.}}}


{{edit add- according to reports the Dallas shooter was armed with 'an Izhmash-Saiga 5.45 mm high-powered rifle in the attack' which is an AK variant, a Glock 9mm semiautomatic pistol and a .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol. At his home they found bomb making materials, ballistic vests, additional rifles and ammunition.
The amazing bitis its all legal, even the bomb making stuff, apparently its Tannerite, 'a powder marketed to make exploding targets for shooting practice.'
On top of this he had attended a private gun club which specialises in teaching "shooting on the move." Their blurb says- 'you will be drawing your firearm, moving, shooting on the move, fixing malfunctions, etc. all under high levels of stress...training includes "shooting from different positions," ''drawing under stress" and "drawing from concealment."

So in America you can buy explosives, high powered lethal weaponry, and get the training to use it in combat situations, and all without breaking a single law or raising a single flag of concern.

Surely its clear there is a problem here? }}}

The country's on a dangerous reinforcing spiral with guns: need guns to defend against guns. Hard to break that kind of thing.

My worry is that if criminals assume everyone has a gun, they may be inclined to shoot from a distance or shoot first from the back. Some people feel safer with a gun, I happen to feel safer without one. But I think that may be a divide between city living where things tend to happen quickly versus country living where you usually can see the danger coming and have time to assess it.

A draw down on assault weapons would be a good first step - you don't need those for defence against anything except an attacking mob, in which case you're better off exiting the area rather than starting a killing spree. A handgun is enough to cover a retreat.

thing is people get angry and lash out. normally intelligent peaceful people have moments of intense rage that is forgotten in an hour. lets say someone cuts you up on a road, or your partner leaves the toilet seat up, its normal to let out anger, and anger is not necessarily a bad thing to express because it lets steam off. But what if you have a gun?.... and in a moment of rage you kill someone you love...it doesn't bear thinking of..and what if a cop who has mental health issues or has terrible problems at home or whatever, has a moment decision whether to shoot or not shoot...and he shoots..then you need to ask whether you want guns so easily reached for..not to mention children shooting their parents or best friends.

{{{{ Quite agree Figg- heard of just such an instance only today here. A woman, wife of a farmer found out her husband had been having an affair and apparently got her hands on some old WW2 pistol still kicking about the old homestead and tried to shoot him in a fit of angry betrayal.
How often does that sort of thing happen? And how often would it end in a shooting if there was always a gun handy?


Just watched Obama's speech at the police memorial- thought it was eloquent, balanced, and pitched well for its intended audiences, and targets. You are going to miss him on these occasions.
The mind boggles at what a President Trump speech would be on such an occasion. }}}

poor Obama he looked quite crushed. what a thankless job he has. I will miss him when he has gone.

I've got a hunch you won't have seen the last of him.

Security concerns mount ahead of Republican convention
CLEVELAND | By Steve Holland and Ginger Gibson

Cleveland's police union called for the suspension of a state law that allows people to carry firearms during the Republican National Convention but Ohio's governor said he was powerless to act despite heightened security concerns with the killing on Sunday of three police officers in Louisiana.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-idUSKCN0ZX0B5?il=0

ummm.... I think i'll watch this one from behind the sofa......

{{{{You know, the overall impression right now, not just of America, but seemingly a huge chunk of the globe, is that its gone mad. And not a fun goofy sort of mad either, but the nasty insane, violent, unpleasant sort of mad.}}}

{{{{you mean like this?}}}}

The attempted coup in Turkey on Friday and the subsequent closure of the Incirlik airbase in the south of the country have raised fresh questions about the wisdom of the US stationing the biggest stockpile of nuclear weapons in Europe at such a vulnerable site.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/17/turkey-coup-attempt-raises-fears-over-safety-of-us-nuclear-stockpile

{{Yeah that sort of thing }}

I think the Cleveland FOP makes more sense than the people who call for ordinary citizens to be armed everywhere. I'm not aware of any way to sort out the "responsible gun owners" who could plausibly stop a killer and those who are more likely to be causing trouble themselves (like the guy who pulled a gun on protesters in Portland) or putting bystanders at risk because they aren't trained.

yup worlds gone barking mad. they did say it was the End Of The World in 2012 didn't they? I think those Aztecs got it wrong, its 2016. its time to stock up on Buckie and hunker down to spend the last few months with our weird shaped veggies.

before...you know...

btw. the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, is one of them grey?