is the arkenstone one of the silmarils?

See, now thats exactly what Peejers wants. & I can totally understand your feelings on this Norc, I mean, look at Kili ? hubba hubba ! But youve just stated what Peejers is after... the attraction to get you into his 'cinema' & pay up, irrespective of the truth, which Peejers wouldnt know if you hit him with a wombat !    Its the 'pulling power !'

actually. the smiling part i believe was richard's idea. like i think he said in an interview that he was looking for places where thorin would smiel because he thought of him as a really likeable guy, although damaged and wheathered and all that. he cares about his people and bilbo, and i think it just gets the messaeg across when he in the end falls under this dragon sickness . like even the "hero" who smiles and his heroic and majestic, can falter in the end.

Except in the book Thorin never is a hero.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Except in the book Thorin never is a hero.

Amen Brother.

no, not a hero in the same way as Bilbo is the "hero" of the story, but hero as in the fact that he wants to reclaim his homeland and do his people right, he has honorable reasons for what he does and sets out to do. but he is not a hero in the fact that he defeats his demons, and fails, he starts out as a hero in many ways, goddamn it he is a king! the "lost heir" and all that, but he just continues to theme that gold corrupts, power corrupts etc. etc. (one could go into an analyses and compare aragorn and thorin, but i think not.). for us to see this majestic, warm hearted being, only glimpses (i didn't say he smiles a lot, he smiles a bit) of this proud king, because in the beginning he is a good and fair king, he is a strong leader, but his history, grief, the "revenge his people for what the dragon did", reclaim honour to his people, reclaim his homeland etc. etc. brakes him in the end. he does realize it though, right before he dies, but still.

Dont you think Thorin is in fact a bit of a swine actually ? He's prepared to stop at nothing, and sacrifice his most trusted friends including some who dont know the whole story of Smaug even not just for the treasure, but the Heirloom of his house and Talisman of Tribal power, the Arkenstone ? He's bordering on a bad 'Un !

Norc wrote:no, not a hero in the same way as Bilbo is the "hero" of the story, but hero as in the fact that he wants to reclaim his homeland and do his people right, he has honorable reasons for what he does and sets out to do. but he is not a hero in the fact that he defeats his demons, and fails, he starts out as a hero in many ways, goddamn it he is a king! the "lost heir" and all that, but he just continues to theme that gold corrupts, power corrupts etc. etc. (one could go into an analyses and compare aragorn and thorin, but i think not.). for us to see this majestic, warm hearted being, only glimpses (i didn't say he smiles a lot, he smiles a bit) of this proud king, because in the beginning he is a good and fair king, he is a strong leader, but his history, grief, the "revenge his people for what the dragon did", reclaim honour to his people, reclaim his homeland etc. etc. brakes him in the end. he does realize it though, right before he dies, but still.

Yeah, he is the King as you say. And I think that weighed heavily on him. Remember in the book he wasn't present for Smaugs attack, but was out and about having fun. Like a young dwarf prince would.

I don't think the goal of the trip in the book ever was reclaiming their homeland though. That might have been a distant dream or hope, but I don't think they ever saw it as realistic. The goal of the trip was stealing back some treasure. Which was why they hired a thief.

As late as in the "On the doorstep" chapter does Bilbo realize the madness of trying to carry treasure over the Desolation of Smaug after having stolen it.

So you have a point, but to me Thorin is a mixed character. He both has the characteristics you described and the ones Petty described to a degree. Which makes him a complicated and interesting character, I guess. Good job, Tolkien.    

feanor 1999 wrote:Dont you think Thorin is in fact a bit of a swine actually ? He's prepared to stop at nothing, and sacrifice his most trusted friends including some who dont know the whole story of Smaug even not just for the treasure, but the Heirloom of his house and Talisman of Tribal power, the Arkenstone ? He's bordering on a bad 'Un !

well, did i say he was perfect? caring for family heirloom and heritage doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing, it can be, but it doesn't have to be. and to begin with he is a great dwarf, a great king and leader, but at the end, excuse my language, he is a bit of a dick. that said, i think it is nice that we see that development (omg the dreaded word 'character development'!!) . but let me just ask a rhetorical question. would he have been able to gather a company of dwarves if he wasn't a sympathetic person? i know this can be said about hitler too, but still. Thorin as some good traits, such as he cares about his kindsmen and family. it's only when he actually reaches the lonely mountain and is near his goal that he is affected by the so-called "dragon sickness". which is one of the underlying themes of the hobbit. gold and glitter and power is not the most important thing in the world, it corrupts even the kindest of hearts. Thorin ofcourse sees the mistakes he has made at the end, though it is too late.

yes, i agree, Blue. their goal might never have been very realistic, but the motives and thoughts behind i think were genuine.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:What took you so long?!   

I forgot how to pronounce Girion properly, so I hesitated.

Then I read The Hobbit again, aloud, in hopes that the proper sound of 'Girion' would flow when the name was read in context. This did not go over well with others during my staff meeting at work however, and I was quickly told to leave if I could not read quietly to myself.

Then I phoned Christopher Tolkien. This too did not go as planned; I never got through but I learned that neither of us use cell phones, which was something.

Then I practiced trilling an r, just in case, for an hour or two. Then I became behorsed, forgot what the problem was [until today], became unbehorsed, and posted.

Norc wrote:yes, i agree, Blue. their goal might never have been very realistic, but the motives and thoughts behind i think were genuine.

Yes, the wish of reclaiming their homeland was probably there. Though I don't think they hoped or planned for anything but stealing back some treasure.

And I think you have a point in what you said. There certainly is a bottomn to Thorins character. It's a little too easy to write him off as just arrogant or petulant and slightly spoiled.

I would probably qualify it more though.

Ayup Norc...

I cant disagree with anything youve written there. Kings and Leaders DO sometimes have to be Ruthless Bastards to get things done. Its all a question of desire for the objective and degree to which theyre prepared to go. There is an extremely good explaining by Balin for this in TH part one, the first part being in Bag End, after Bilbo says no to being a part of the company, and also when he explains why he will follow Thorin in the nasty 'Night-Orc' put down of Fili and Kili by Thorin which leads into the battle before the gates of Moria... Yep. fair points all.

i didn't say that leaders sometimes has to be ruthless bastards, though i see what u mean, i was just saying that there is more to thorin than just a grumpy old fellow.

By 'behorsed'... do you mean you gained a horse or lost one? And what colour was this horse?

Elthir I will let you off, this time for your tardiness, but only because your post made me squirt buckie from my nose!   

Lancebloke wrote:By 'behorsed'... do you mean you gained a horse or lost one? And what colour was this horse?

I neither gained nor lost. Behorsing is an ancient art but unfortunately I have lost control over it.

And during a true behorsing, the colour, even shadow-grey, is of little concern if noticed at all. That's hard to wrap my mind around, yes, but it's true.

Petty wrote: Elthir I will let you off, this time for your tardiness, but only because your post made me squirt buckie from my nose!   

LOL! A mental image I enjoyed, despite the sad loss of [a measure of] fine buckie.

But what is behorsing Elthir?

A mental image I enjoyed, despite the sad loss of [a measure of] fine buckie.- Elthir

Oh it wasnt a loss Elthir, I made sure I got it all back, waste not want not!  

He's there with his straw again  

Lancebloke wrote:But what is behorsing Elthir?  

Do you mean to ask which entity in particular is involved in behorsing Elthir at the moment? Or did you just want to know what 'behorsing' meant?

If the latter, you may learn by this experiment. Balance yourself astride a decent foot ladder, proclaim it to be your horse, and invite a helpful passerby to crash into the ladder with predictable consequences. You may then shout out "Alack, I have been behorsed!" as you fall, and will never have doubts about the meaning again.

As I probably posted before, it is difficult to explain a true behorsing to the never-behorsed.

But I can say that to be bewitched doesn't mean that one has been knocked off a witch. Or does it? Anyway, not that 'bewitching' explains behorsing, but the confusion is expected as the art of the latter is mostly forgotten today.

I think I was bewitched once, by a horse. What does that count as and does it matter what colour the horse was?

Only if it was grey  

A horsey-bewitching?

And I believe the colour of all things matters, be that horses or grass.

What if the witch was hoarse?