Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Orwell]

That snappy little summary sort of brushes aside the fact that -- far from ignoring it -- most of the protesters are objecting to systematic flaws within the United States' system of "the rule of law".

1. That snappy little summary --- What do you mean by that?


2.  far from ignoring it -- most of the protesters are objecting to systematic flaws within the United States' system of "the rule of law".   --- You still manage to miss my point, I think.

I withdraw, though I'm a little mystified by "That snappy little summary." Are you picking a fight or congratulating me for finding some kind of pithiness over the matter?  

[Mrs Figg]

we all need some peace and love.

[Eldorion]

far from ignoring it -- most of the protesters are objecting to systematic flaws within the United States' system of "the rule of law".   --- You still manage to miss my point, I think.

I apologize if I missed your point, but I was trying to respond to your criticism of protesters for not respecting or following established legal processes (and making everything "political"). I felt that criticism was sort of incidental when a major point of the protests is that the available legal channels are insufficient and unjust.

[Orwell]

I don't object to peaceful protests.

Also, I see criticising legal processes as part of the legal process, challenging legal channels that may be percieved to be insufficient and unjust, accepting your assertion that they are in need of being challenged in this case. Though I would like to state my personal belief that Law generally evolves positively in strong democracies. Also, it might be of interest to note that Martin Luther King did not agitate for mob violence in pursuit of an improvement in fair and due process, and I think it reasonable to assert that the Rule of Law in regard to Afican Americans and other minorities were far less sufficient and just back then. He believed in better thinking and the pursuit of a better kind of humanity. His speeches are full of obvious truths and are remarkably non-political, or non-sectarian might be a more accurate description. He certainly was never a blind hater and reactionary.  

Btw the particular tends to attract my attention, not broad media driven generalising. Some points in case: 1. Did or didn't the cop reasonably shoot Brown? We still don't know. Let's hear the evidence of witnesses. 2. If you get your car burned and you're an innocent citizen, does that make any difference when rage-against-the-system is your whole manifesto?

[Sinister71]

I'll put it like this and then I'm gonna leave this subject completely alone... Peaceful protest is one thing I am all for it. I fully support it However if someone wants to loot my house or business, burn my vehicle or ANYTHING I own,(I do NOT find this peaceful protest) I will put a bullet in them and leave them to bleed to death in the street regardless of color or situation... if they try and harm me, my family or my worldly possessions . They will not have to worry about oppression because their time on this earth will come to an end. I will promise them that... I plan on keeping what is mine because I worked hard and earned it. I didn't take it by force, i didn't break any laws and was given no special treatment based on my skin color.

Peaceful protest has a place will it create change probably not. BUT rules are in place for a reason and when people feel they can break those rules to make a point. I'm not having it. I work hard for what I have, I don't break the law, I pay my taxes, don't go to church, and treat EVERYONE the same exact way that I would want to be treated UNTIL they give me a reason not to treat them like that anymore. Everyone has a choice and the right to make a change which will not happen overnight but its been how many years and these people are still where there are there has to be a reason and its not someone oppressing anyones fault People can make up their own minds stay in school get scholarships go to college and make change. its not hard you just have to avoid the bullshit that people get trapped in in areas like that..

I can't speak for anyone but me but all people were created equal some choose to get a head some stay the same ans others through either bad luck stupidity or both get worse off. But you can't blame someone else for your own misery if you don't try and better yourself.

[Mrs Figg]

yikes! Thats what Petty says when someone tries to steal his buckie. Only its not a bullet, its a live Haggis up the jacksie.

[Orwell]

I accept there can be inequality in any system, but there is room in America to challenge laws etcetera. It is what American Law is about as far as I know. Not everyone has equal opportunity, and how you're brought up affects aspiration, but I think your general point is still right, in America you can aspire and achieve through hard work - which includes thinking things through clearly and logically, the hardest work of all. I think one of the greatest burrs on American aspiration is the sense of entitlement too many people have. Also, too many can't see past their hate to work for positive change - selfishly tearing thngs down rarely means things ge better. Work, build things, Sin. I agree with you. Those who struggle can be helped a little though, so long as they don't become too dependant on or 'entitilized' by the Tax Payer. The idea is to build people up who are disadvantaged so they too can become diligent Tax Payers. I can't think of any person in history who has made a success of their lives purely on their own, but I think it is a truism that you need to work more and whinge less if you want to succeed. Much of the damage done is criminal activity, not in any way legitimate protest. Peaceful protest can change things , but only gradually, and only if the protest is based on concepts of sound evidence and fairness.

[Eldorion]

You mentioned MLK Orwell, so I'm curious if you have any thoughts about my observation that even the most peaceful of movements have benefited from the use and threat of violence by other groups that shared their aims.

[Orwell]

yikes! Thats what Petty says when someone tries to steal his buckie. Only its not a bullet, its a live Haggis up the jacksie.

Petty believes you should steal your own buckie and not get some lazy bastard to steal it for you, and that stealing from buckie from the Scotshobbit who thieved it in the first place, is not only respectable Scotshobbit behaviour, but a true mark of insanse courage.

[Mrs Figg]

talking of peaceful protest. Those Hong Kongians were happy enough to wave bye bye to the British but look where they are now. Running battles on the streets, rigged elections, who knows what next. bet they wish they were still free.

[Orwell]

You mentioned MLK Orwell, so I'm curious if you have any thoughts about my observation that even the most peaceful of movements have benefited from the use and threat of violence by other groups that shared their aims.

Maybe - I am no judge. I certainly don't enough on the subject. As a general possibility, I don't see why not. The question for me is: can peaceful and logical protest in it's broadesd sense) manufacture change. It can, but it might take time, just as Sin observed above . Perhaps MLK was assisted by violence because people could see he was opposed to violence and they came to listen to and understand his message that the violence of both white and black reactionaries was ugly, and that fairness should extended to all Americans? My general thought would be that change based on violence may be less sustainable than change based on people opening their minds and hearts sufficiently to know what fairness is. Thart sems to me to ne MLK's main message - and a wnning concept once people actually get over their taught prejudices and think about it.

[halfwise]

The violent and criminal protesters should be arrested and have the book thrown at them: I don't think anyone here is arguing anything else.

The grand jury most likely made the correct decision, I don't think anyone here is arguing anything else.
(and in a rare correct public relations move, the transcripts have been released publicly: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/index.html).

What Eldo and I have been trying to say is that a large fraction of the protesters (I assume the peaceful ones) have been using Ferguson as a rallying point to bring light to problems in police/minority relations.

I think generally the police understand the situation much better than the general public and do their level best to see their way through it. But when most criminals do in fact fit the description of these minorities, it's hard not to catch the wrong folks in the net; it's hard to avoid police from the majority who may not be successful in weeding their way through cultural differences in a tense situation. The sizeable fraction of protesters who are decent people want to bring these problems to the forefront.

[Orwell]

talking of peaceful protest. Those Hong Kongians were happy enough to wave bye bye to the British but look where they are now. Running battles on the streets, rigged elections, who knows what next. bet they wish they were still free.

The problem seems to be China want to vet candidates, not stop the voting process per se. China is in the wrong as I see it. (I do believe firmly in democracy and wll always defend it - you probably didn't know that. ). Don't know why they don't just keep collecting Hong Kong taxes and let them get on with making money for China. Mind you, China probably fears Hong Kong will turn into a Taiwan.

[Eldorion]

I'd love to have a more in-depth discussion on this topic with you, Orwell, but unfortunately I'm at work on break so my ability to type long posts is limited.

talking of peaceful protest. Those Hong Kongians were happy enough to wave bye bye to the British but look where they are now. Running battles on the streets, rigged elections, who knows what next. bet they wish they were still free.

The citizens of Hong Kong didn't get to choose what happened to their city before, during, or after the handover.

[Orwell]

The violent and criminal protesters should be arrested and have the book thrown at them: I don't think anyone here is arguing anything else.

The grand jury most likely made the correct decision, I don't think anyone here is arguing anything else.
(and in a rare correct public relations move, the transcripts have been released publicly: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/11/us/ferguson-grand-jury-docs/index.html).

What Eldo and I have been trying to say is that a large fraction of the protesters (I assume the peaceful ones) have been using Ferguson as a rallying point to bring light to problems in police/minority relations.

I think generally the police understand the situation much better than the general public and do their level best to see their way through it.  But when most criminals do in fact fit the description of these minorities, it's hard not to catch the wrong folks in the net; it's hard to avoid police from the majority who may not be successful in weeding their way through cultural differences in a tense situation.  The sizeable fraction of protesters who are decent people want to bring these problems to the forefront.

That makes sense to me and I am not at odds with any of it. I was just a bit perplexed by Eldo's reaction to my initial post, the 'snappy answer' thing (I'm still not sure what he meant by that ), and I also thought he may have missed my main point at the beginning. But that's sorted now and I am sending Eldo a Christmas parcel with a clock in it. I've already set the alarm.  

[Mrs Figg]

they were promised one country, two systems. looks like its one country, one system.

[Orwell]

I almost feel like saying: I told you so. Not you, Mrs Figg, but the Universal 'You'. I'm actually amazed it's taken so long to get the one China plan underway.

[Sinister71]

What Eldo and I have been trying to say is that a large fraction of the protesters (I assume the peaceful ones) have been using Ferguson as a rallying point to bring light to problems in police/minority relations.

My problem with that is a white cop placed in a minority area is expected to uphold the law. Not hold the minorities hand and give him cookies or babysit. Every grown man or woman from the age of 12 should know right and wrong. Regardless of skin color ....The minorities actions dictate most of the time how the officer reacts. (I have two good friends in Atlanta GA police department right now, both white, both in low income minority neighborhoods and neither has a racist bone in their body) but on a daily basis they are forced to chase suspects who refuse to stop, have altercations where the person thinks the can steam roll over the officer and get away. Bust people who can't afford to pay their bills but can buy drugs. Many signs of NOT obeying the law. I'm not saying its the majority of people but they see it day in and day out how these people are taught to disrespect authority, I hear about it with kids as young as 3rd grade.

Instead of these minorities promoting disrespect, or blame, or racial barriers. why not start promoting, follow the law, don't steal, do what an officer of the law tells you to, stand up and be held accountable for your own actions. Stop blaming everyone else for your actions, or your situation. If you don't like it change it. Its that simple where there is a will there is a way. And i say that living in the deep south where racism runs high on BOTH sides. And sometimes NOT the side you would think it is coming from

[Orwell]

And i say that living in the deep south where racism runs high on BOTH sides. And sometimes NOT the side you would think it is coming from

I agree with you. Especially the bit I quoted. I think we need to rise above the idea that racism is one colour and 'all things good and right' another.

[Sinister71]

And i say that living in the deep south where racism runs high on BOTH sides. And sometimes NOT the side you would think it is coming from

I agree with you. Especially the bit I quoted. I think we need to rise above the idea that racism is one colour and 'all things good and right' another.  

completely agree

[Orwell]

Yes, if only we would could all sit down together and get pissed. A few man hugs. A guitar to sing old favorites from multiple cultural backgrounds. And kill off God once and for all. Then humans could become truly... er.. humans... for better or worse -- but mainly for better I think. You know, humans as 'thinking' animals, and not Neanderthals. As everyone (who drink) know, alcohol can make you wiser... except to people who don't drink (splitters!!! )

[azriel]

Yer not far wrong there Orwell God has come between all of us for to long now, we dont know who we are anymore, weve lost our identity.

[Orwell]

We will never grow up if we keep relying totally on our Dad (especially our imaginary Dad).

[Sinister71]

I was raised in the church so I believe to an extent but I think it was more like god left a bowl of something on the stand and it got knocked over and forgotten and took on a life of its own independent from what its creator intended. Like evolution with divine intervention. And once it was found it was like like "well they got this under control lets see what they can do on their own." Kind of like the sea monkeys I had when I was 5

Do I still pray? not so much anymore. Do I go to church? Not so much anymore.

But I do believe in treating each other with respect and learning to live together with our differences. I just know I'm gonna live my life to the fullest and be happy with no regrets and I wish the same for everyone else regardless.

[Orwell]

But I do believe in treating each other with respect and learning to live together with our differences. I just know I'm gonna live my life to the fullest and be happy with no regrets and I wish the same for everyone else regardless.

I'm happpy you and God share my view. We all might become friends yet.