Is God evil - or just lazy?

I was thinking about the horrible things God lets people get away with. Hypothetical (but realistic) example: A man steals a child, tortures the child horrifically, rapes the child, starves the child to death, throws its bones out with the trash. God knows these things happen, because God made everything and sees everything. Why doesn't God intervene to help out the innocent in cases like that? Is God evil, or just lazy?

Religion. A trick of the church to keep a hold of the gullible.

Was about 8 or 9yrs old when i realised there was no such thing as god.
More truth in little green men to be honest.
If i was the creator of the universe i wouldnt let all these bad things happen.

I've got no doubt you'd make a better God than our current one.

Well the usual excuse for the question "why do bad things happen?" Is that God gave us free will and therefore its our own fault. He's sitting up there shaking his head and beng very depressed about the whole thing presumably. This works as a reason fine until, like Chris, you get to about 8 and start realizing as an answer its a teensy bit flawed. What about tsunami, earthquakes etc? They are good from a planet point of view and entirely necessary, but often completely fatal to anything on the surface at the time. Odd sort of a planet for a God to make to put His main creation on. Why did He not construst us a stable planet? Whats the point of one that the landmasses are on the move all the time, huge geological upheavals and a cycle round our sun that means its as often a white frozen globe as it is temperate? Oh and it also gets hit by quite a lot of meteors and comets on a reletavily regular basis. Maybe God was just not very good at making planets?
And then there is the sheer scale of things- building a universe just so you have somewhere to keep the humans is a bit like building a huge stadium to store a mote of dust in, only much more so.

The whole question of is God evil? is an interestng one. If there is a God its hard not to come to the conclusion He is evil, or at the very least has an unusual sense of humour. If we accept a God made the universe then presumably as a God they could have made it anyway they wanted- marshmallow planets if they wanted, they are God. But God didn't. Instead he choose to make a universe in which living things, in order to continue being living things, have to kill other living things and consume them. Then as one of His main rules to be obeyed He says 'Thou shalt not kill'- see what I mean about a twisted humour?
As God he could have set it up so we got all we needed from sunlight, or the air. But no, killing and eating each other was the way God decided to go, not an auspicious start for our God (maybe He was on a training scheme).
Then of course there is the inequity of birth. You can be born anything from crippled and brain damaged to a genius. No choice, just some sort of God lottery going on. And even if you are lucky enough to be born with everything working you have a good chance of being born into such abject poverty or starvation you don't last more than a few days or weeks or so anyway. Just long enough to trun up on the tv news with a face covered in flies before they bury you. If this is the will of a God He is a sick puppy. (And for those who say thats our fault I refer you back to the earlier point about making us having to consume to survive- as an omnipotent being He must have been bright enough to spot the flaws in that as an idea, not to mention the cruelty of it).
So in short my assesment is: God, what a bastard.

I'm considering replacing God with a democratically elected Mortal. You're my second prospective candidate, Petty! You appear to have a Moral View. (Funny, because don't Morals come from God?

If there is no God then no. Morality is entirely a human construct therefore aethists have as much a right to claim a morality as the religous. The only difference is one group claims their morality comes from a supernatural deity and the other from their fellow human beings.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:If there is no God then no. Morality is entirely a human construct therefore aethists have as much a right to claim a morality as the religous. The only difference is one group claims their morality comes from a supernatural deity and the other from their fellow human beings.

So we created God and God didn't create us? Is that what you're saying?

We created a God and we hung on that framework rules for making life better for everyone and eventually rules for living together in large settlements. Morality is a consequence of sharing.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:We created a God and we hung on that framework rules for making life better for everyone and eventually rules for living together in large settlements. Morality is a consequence of sharing.

I see. So simple when you think about it. Maybe religious folk haven't been taught to think clearly. Clear Thinking used to be taught. Bring it back, I say.

Orwell wrote:
I see. So simple when you think about it. Maybe religious folk haven't been taught to think clearly. Clear Thinking used to be taught. Bring it back, I say.

Well this scientist doesn't think clearly then!

I always find this question difficult, but then it goes wih my whole contradictory view on religion. As a scientist I find the 'natural disaters are proof god is evil' theory to be off. The Universe is bound by certain constants, they have to be there for things to work properly, God didn't sit down and conciously decide to make things this way, it is the way it works. It would have to work this way.

I also can see the logic in the idea that faith is a human construct that helps people deal with things that they can't control, and the idea that it gave an evolutionary advantage to people. I am well aware (and quite comfortable with) the idea that I may be self deluding.

As I have said before, I can offer no logic for why I believe, I just know I do. It is an emotional response and I can not discount the solace and comfort I get from it. It is the forgiveness that is crucial to my belief, Human beings as animals, have some pretty base instincts. Even those of us who following the underlying ethical code do things we regret or are ashamed of at some point, things that most of us would agree would deserve some form of restitution, yet we have great difficulty truly forgiving others (I would argue that nine times out of ten we agree to forget, rather than forgive). The idea that ultimately there is forgiveness, not punishment, shapes my view of god.

Taking all those things together it adds up to the idea that I don't see god as evil, or playing with his toys in the sandbox, but as a support and comfort in an all too human world that is beset by the laws of nature.

But surely that implies a God who did not create the Universe but is as constrained by its laws as we are?
Reminds me of something Pratchett said (might have been Adams) 'but as the Gods came into existance a few nanosecods after the universe, and not the week before as they usually claim, they already have a lot to answer for.'

I don't believe it's my business to tell anyone not to to believe. To all their own delusions. As long as no one tells me they have a body of rules from God, I can live with whatever your faith leads you to believe. I have a basic thought about God or No God - at the heart of existence is the question: "Why anything?" God's not My answer. It doesn't mean God can't be anyone else's explanation. I would be interested to know though Kafria, is there a "purpose" behind it all? What's God telling you?

I suspect the answer to "Why anything?" is "Because if there wasn't anything you wouldn't be able to ask the question." Which would be true if not necessarily helpful...

Being a strongly religious person, I feel the need to put my 2 cents in. Normally I try to stay out of these forums and topics, just because they get a bit to "BIG." But in response to "Why Bad Things Happen," and why God let's them happen, here is my answer. I go to church every Sunday-Catholic Church- and more often than not, there is always talk about the unrighteous. The fact that perfectly good people who do good things but don't believe in God aren't considered "righteous" was always a sore spot with me. I justify it by saying that good people do believe in God (in a sense) if they believe in doing the right thing. I think the "God" is just a human name for something much bigger and unfathomable. That's why there are flaws. We cannot picture something flawless, because we know nothing flawless. Reality is what we perceive as real, right? So if we cannot percieve something "real", than it cannot exist. But that does not mean it doesn't exist.
And talking about why bad things happen to innocent little children, I have no answer, only that justice will be served in the afterlife. Also, we cannot think that each human is here to live to serve themselves only. We all help each other grow as people, and some ways are more horrible than others. But since we have free will, God cannot intervene. Yes I know that seems much to conveinent for Him, but if he could intervene whenever a good person was in trouble, or a bad person does something horrible, how could we evolve and learn? We are here on this planet to do our best to live the best lives we can. When we understand that this is best done through goodness, then a sense of a higher power is acheived. It is also the good's job to protect the innocent from the evil, when we can. If God can do nothing, then we must. If God had to send Christ down from heaven to help us, in MORTAL form, doesn't that say that he cannot directly intervene?????

I'm very fond of Waylon Jennings' view on religion and belief, even if I'm not religious myself:

"how could we evolve and learn?" - Tinuviel

Yes but problem there is God made humans perfect and in His image. We only became flawed and mortal as a punishment for the apple debacle. So whatever plan God originally had for us it did not invovle learning and especially not evolving.
Free will was not a gift. Humans stole it by eating the apple. Everything that happened after the apple bit God seemingly had not planned (unless He planned the whole Fall thing- would explain why he put the first humans, the apple tree and an evil talking serpent all in the same place however!) which leaves us with a supposedly loving God watching all this nastiness unfold as a consequence of the apple choice and choosing not to intervene-not because its part of some grand plan, but to punish us. Its one of the reasons I find the Christian God quite an unpleasant construct.

"only that justice will be served in the afterlife."

Sorry Tin but I find that a religous cop out. Its inexplicable why a loving God would have millions born into such terrible conditions only to die almost immediately- and a large part of that is down to huge bits of the planet being almost impossible to live in- if there is a God He must take some responsibility for this - He made the place- yet He seems quite happy to let it continue. To say it will be all right after they are dead when we have no proof whatsoever of anything after death seems a weak excuse for the discrepancies and vagrancies of life. I mean why put them through a few days or weeks of pain, hunger and slow lingering death at all? If He is a loving God why not skip that bit and put them stright to Heaven? What sort of a God demands such suffering as a door pass?

"I justify it by saying that good people do believe in God (in a sense) if they believe in doing the right thing."

I find the idea that if I do something 'good' I am believing in God without believing a little offensive (I know that was not the intent Tin) the truth is if I do something nice I am probably being selfsh in the hope that if its me in that position next tme someone will do something good for me- in that sense its closer to a notion of Karma than to God. If you can have a selfish version of Karma.

I don't mean to knock your religion in particular Tin- and my points are more general than aimed at you- just you touched on explanations churches often give for these things.
I get that the world would be an easier place to deal with if you can believe its watched over by a loving God its just evidence for that is, to say the least, a bit thin on the ground.

Like I said, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, so I'm not going to go in depth about it. You either believe or you don't. It's simple. I may not have been as clear and persuasive as I wanted to be, but the beliefs are my own, and may be influenced by the church. Having read and seen enough fantasy in my life, I find it quite easy to believe in a God. But that's just me Call me naiive. I think that it's just all to complicated to understand, so it requires alot of trust. And that's a tricky business, trusting in something without much proof.

I have no problem with you being religous Tin or your beliefs. I often admire that abiltiy in others to make such leaps of faith. I require more solid grounds however. But I do not for example class myself as atheist- I'm a don't know but susect there is something going on if only to provide an answer to the question Orwell posed "Why something instead of nothing?".
I am just not a fan of religion as I don't believe it is either the truth nor honest but thats a seperate matter from belief.

Tinuviel wrote:Like I said, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, so I'm not going to go in depth about it. You either believe or you don't. It's simple. I may not have been as clear and persuasive as I wanted to be, but the beliefs are my own, and may be influenced by the church. Having read and seen enough fantasy in my life, I find it quite easy to believe in a God. But that's just me Call me naiive. I think that it's just all to complicated to understand, so it requires alot of trust. And that's a tricky business, trusting in something without much proof.

The thing I try to keep in mind about this is, no matter how strong one's beliefs are, NONE of us have an absolute answer, not scientists, nor religionists, not when it comes down to First Causes. Even scientists can't prove First Causes. We all speculate. But I'm with Petty on this, Tin, the idea of God (along with the trappings) presented by Catholics, or Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, seem twaddle to me. "Spiritual" things are beyond my comprehension, that does not make them impossible.

Improbable, but not impossible I like to keep an open mind about things, and my own beliefs. But it's much more fulfilling and (superficial?) to think that there is something instead of nothing. But I guess it depends on the perspective you are raised with, or have been influenced by. Always keep an open mind, says I

Tinuviel wrote:Improbable, but not impossible I like to keep an open mind about things, and my own beliefs. But it's much more fulfilling and (superficial?) to think that there is something instead of nothing. But I guess it depends on the perspective you are raised with, or have been influenced by. Always keep an open mind, says I

Just so!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:"I justify it by saying that good people do believe in God (in a sense) if they believe in doing the right thing."

I find the idea that if I do something 'good' I am believing in God without believing a little offensive

I have to agree with Petty that I find that view to be a bit offensive and presumptuous, though I also realize that it wasn't the intent. I do my best to live up to the moral ideals I think are best after self-reflection and familiarizing myself with various moral theories, some of which have a religious component and some of which do not. I also don't believe in any sort of God or the supernatural, and I don't like the implication that if I don't believe in that then I can't be a good or moral person. But that's more of a general complaint since I know you aren't really like that, Tin.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:So in short my assesment is: God, what a bastard.

Not to mention that if you break any of God's arbitrary rules you are consigned to eternal torture, according to the traditional view. No matter how horrible the crimes committed during a person's lifetime are, there is still a finite limit to what they could do since they eventually died. But the afterlife never ends, so Hell is an infinite punishment for finite crimes. Not to mention that torture is an unjust punishment no matter what, and especially for "thought crimes" like, say, not believing in God.

If the traditional Biblical interpretation of Heaven and Hell is correct, then God is the most oppressive, brutal tyrant mankind has ever encountered. I recognize that there are plenty of Christians and other religious folk who don't buy into that interpretation, though.

It would be interesting to survey Christians and find out what they actually believe- I suspect a lot of contradictory stuff if it was laid out. The old punishment god seems to be a bit out of favour for the most part these days, the loving God is still to the fore, although He seems to love the gays less! And the Muslims for getting His name wrong or something!

Orwell wrote:I've got no doubt you'd make a better God than our current one.

Funny you should say that Orwell, because when i bump into people i no, the first thing they say is "oh god"