Re: All New Who

by **Amarië** Sun May 01, 2022 5:41 pm

I think I can understand a bit of what you are saying, Figgy, don't you think normalising is better than putting it all in "shhhh, don't talk about it" box and pretend it's not there?

by Mrs Figg Sun May 01, 2022 7:06 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ By that measure then heterosexuality should likewise be left out of childrens tv- so no 10 and Rose, no 11 and River, no Amy and Rory. Why are those relationships not morally reprehensible in childrens tv? }}

Thats a bit disingenuous, thats like saying ignore your mum and dad's relationship because they are heterosexual. Rose and 10 engage in a light friendship for most of the time and it is certainly not going to groom young minds. What I object to is marketing a podcast through gender identity/sexual orientation, as if that is the story. To take RTD as an example because he is my favourite, he created characters who were not typical gender stereotypes, but they were organic and not beating you over the head with 'oooh look a gay/trans/binary' RTD just told the story. I think normalising the gender dysphoria message is a huge mistake and robs children of the right to be children and free of adult themes like sexual orientation, and gender dysphoria is just that, a dysphoria, its not the norm, its an aberration. Its just like promoting any other mental health problems as fashionable. They might as well promote anorexia or self harming as a choice. Introducing children to adult sexuality is morally dubious imo.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 01, 2022 7:13 pm

Amarië wrote:I think I can understand a bit of what you are saying, Figgy, don't you think normalising is better than putting it all in "shhhh, don't talk about it" box and pretend it's not there?

But why would children be interested in such adult things? Only adults with an agenda seem to want to introduce kids to this stuff, they introduce these things to vulnerable and unformed minds and then wonder why there are scandals after some poor child has taken puberty blockers and has been chemically castrated before he/she has matured or knew that they would naturally change their minds as they grew up. I identified as a mermaid as a kid, if they had chopped me in half and made me half Haddock I would be very sorry now.

by **Amarië** Sun May 01, 2022 9:17 pm

I agree that it is awful to hear about people regretting the treatment they thought they wanted. But that doesn't mean all who wants it must be denied. That's not fair either. Very difficult topic.

What do you mean with " such things"? I don't know where you draw the line, what ages you mean and what topics, so I don't know if I agree or not.

by azriel Sun May 01, 2022 9:23 pm

Im thinking its about innocence, Children are the most innocent minded individuals but, once thats gone there is absolutely no going back. In fact you cant remember how it was before things happened. Being a plain ordinary child is the purist thing, the best thing. Too long is spent in being an adult and all the unwanted shit that goes with it. Ive lost track of how many times I wished I could start again, live differently, do things differently. All I cared about as a child was my favourite toys, the fun we had and Christmas.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 01, 2022 10:09 pm

azriel wrote:Im thinking its about innocence, Children are the most innocent minded individuals but, once thats gone there is absolutely no going back. In fact you cant remember how it was before things happened. Being a plain ordinary child is the purist thing, the best thing. Too long is spent in being an adult and all the unwanted shit that goes with it. Ive lost track of how many times I wished I could start again, live differently, do things differently. All I cared about as a child was my favourite toys, the fun we had and Christmas.

I agree Az and i think unfortunately with social media and access to porn on smart phones chlldren have been cruelly denied their innocence. All it takes is one kid at school sharing that stuff and their innocence is gone in the most brutal way.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 01, 2022 10:16 pm

Amarië wrote:I agree that it is awful to hear about people regretting the treatment they thought they wanted. But that doesn't mean all who wants it must be denied. That's not fair either. Very difficult topic.

What do you mean with " such things"? I don't know where you draw the line, what ages you mean and what topics, so I don't know if I agree or not.

I am thinking of the age of consent to legally take these drugs or have life changing surgery. A child before that age should be protected by their parents from making a life changing decision. A lot of these cases turned out to be autism, undue influence from social media, grooming by adults or just natural gender confusion of puberty which if left to itself sorts itself out, and religious or conservative parents who refuse to have a gay son or daughter. I think this seeming explosion of kids being trans is mostly the adult world influencing youngsters and basically its misogyny and homophobia dressed up in a rainbow flag.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 02, 2022 9:07 am

Rose and 10 engage in a light friendship for most of the time and it is certainly not going to groom young minds.- Figg

{{ If Rose had been male (which I have always thought was RTD's original aim and she is written as a gay character in terms of being very similar in personality and type to other gay male characters RTD wrote for Queer as Life) would that have automatically made the same story but with a male Rose grooming young minds then?
I dont understand why in a country where men and women, women and women, men and men can all get married, raise families and live normal lives same as anyone else, we should be worried about children seeing such relationships normalised in television programs- hey are normal, they happen already in our society. They are as normal as a heterosexual relationship, if we can show one type with no fuss why is there fuss over showing the other types of relationships that exist?

TV has always used its power to send messages and normalise social changes.
You can chart BBC television through the decades on this.
When the BBC began it was like presented theatre- only rp accents allowed, presenters in full suits the ladies in evening gowns.
By the late 50's and especially into the 60's you got the artistic push back against this- stuff like Cathy Come Home, and the original 6 part run of drama Coronation Street were the first time on British tv you got genuine regional accents on television, it was the beginning of tv tackling societal issues as a deliberate aim. It where your Ken Loaches, Dennis Potter, Alan Bennett etc come onto the scene.

By the time you and I were growing up with British TV of the 70's and into the 80's the most popular stuff on was, by todays terms, all social engineering the population to accept new societal norms- dramas are full of working women- stuff like Juliet Bravo, women's issues and rights and place in history was being addressed in stuff like Tenko even US imports like Cagney and Lacey and comedy like the Liver Birds, Butterflies.
Likewise Tv was addressing racism through comedy- Till Death Do Us Part, Rising Damp, Love Thy Neighbour and a host of other popular shows tackled racism head on and showed how skin colour was not relevant we were all just people.
By the 80's and into the 90's the agenda had switched from dominated by women's and social and racial rights to dealing with homosexuality, still illegal at that time in the UK. We stared to see a lot of gay characters being normalised, from imports again like Will and Grace, to Captain Jack in Who that trend has continued.
Every decade an agenda to promote.

Now in the present day the arguments are around the under representation and ignoring of gender fluidity and tv and media is doing what it has always done, reflect that and make those arguments. Nothing has changed save the social issue being tackled. And in all cases its a group who face under-representation and a lack of equal rights in society; the working class, women racism, homosexuality- you can chart the tv decades by them. All thats changed is folk call it social engineering now and say we are being brainwashed by media- when in fact this is exactly what drama in our media has always done. And in fact drama throughout history. Some of the oldest places we have in existence, the Greek ones, deal with social and political issues of their own day. The problem with Chibnall Who is not that its present its that its done so clumsily and badly.

'Its just like promoting any other mental health problems'- Figg

That sounds like your implying everyone who is trans is in fact just mentally ill. There are examples of trans people from throughout history, and in the animal kingdom. Interestingly enough when a male primate was observed taking on the traits and duties of the females of the group it was the female primates who were most hostile towards them participating. It seems to be similar in the human sphere as it seems to me women are more hostile in general to the notion of trans folk than men are. And gender norms have never been set across human history or societies, its always been fluid.
There's a nice bit in the Eaters of Light episode where Bill tells the Roman soldiers she only likes women ad their response is-

LUCIUS: I don't think it's narrow-minded. I think it's fine. You know what you like.
BILL: And you like both?
LUCIUS: I'm just ordinary. You know, I like men and women.
BILL: Ha! Well, isn't this all very modern.
LUCIUS: Hey, not everyone has to be modern. I think it's really sweet that you're so restricted.

It effectively conveys the reality, gender norms are not and never have been set in stone.

When it comes to treatment my understanding of hormonal blockers is they are not irreversible. they only work for so long as you take them, soon as you stop normal gender changes will resume. So there doesnt seem to be much risk there, and they obviously have to be issued when the person is going through puberty or there wouldn't be a point to them. So the age at which treatment starts is not dictated by governments or doctors even, but by natures own timing.

As to chemical castration- I can find no evidence its ever been used in trans treatment in the UK. In fact far as I can tell its sole purpose in the Uk has been on paedophile prisoners who volunteer for the treatment. So I think that ones just a bit of a bogey man. As it doesnt actually happen.

My personal issue with these issue sin Chibnall Who is not that they are there, its that they are so shoddily written, in badly written stories, with poorly conceived characters spouting appaling dialogue at each other.
This radio dram on the otherhand has similar aims in terms of having a point with regards to normalising these characters, but succeeds where Chibbers fails by writing them as real people first who also happen to have the sexual orientations they do (straight, lesbian, trans).}}

by Mrs Figg Mon May 02, 2022 6:46 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Rose and 10 engage in a light friendship for most of the time and it is certainly not going to groom young minds.- Figg

{{

'Its just like promoting any other mental health problems'- Figg

"That sounds like your implying everyone who is trans is in fact just mentally ill." Petty.

Gender dysphoria is a form of mental disorder.

" as it seems to me women are more hostile in general to the notion of trans folk than men are. And gender norms have never been set across human history or societies, its always been fluid."

I would really like you to give us concrete proof for that quite outrageously false statement. As a rule females are not any more hostile than men, but women have a vast amount more to lose than men. Women lose in sport, women lose when males are sent to female prisons, women lose in public toilets, and most of all Lesbians lose when they are coerced to have sex with trans women. Men are not put in impossible situations by trans men so therefore they have nothing to be 'hostile' about.

'When it comes to treatment my understanding of hormonal blockers is they are not irreversible. they only work for so long as you take them, soon as you stop normal gender changes will resume. So there doesnt seem to be much risk there."

You need to do more research in that case because 'normal gender changes' can be permanent.

As to chemical castration- I can find no evidence its ever been used in trans treatment in the UK. In fact far as I can tell its sole purpose in the Uk has been on paedophile prisoners who volunteer for the treatment. So I think that ones just a bit of a bogey man. As it doesnt actually happen.

By chemical castration I mean puberty blockers which stop normal sexual development.
).}}

by halfwise Mon May 02, 2022 7:12 pm

Hormonal blockers during puberty would definitely have consequences. I doubt the body will "catch up" once the hormone blockers are removed. I also doubt taking corrective hormones after puberty would have the same effect.

On the other hand, if people definitely knew their psychological sex before puberty that would be the time to take hormones. So it cuts both ways. The question is when do people definitely know their final sex, and how can it definitely be known.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 02, 2022 7:14 pm

Gender dysphoria is a form of mental disorder.- Figg

{{ I couldnt disagree more. Being trans is no more a mental illness than being gay, lesbian or straight. To imply anyone who is trans is mentally ill does seem like an outrageous claim to me.

As to females being more hostile about it, why do you say its an outrageous claim when you immediately go on to agree that this is the case as women have, in your words, more to lose. I dont agree with that either. I dont see why a way forward cant be found that respect both trans and womens rights. They shouldnt be mutually exclusive or have to infringe on each other.

As to blockers being permanent- youll need to supply the proof of that as Ive been all over official medical journals on this including the British Medical Journal and they all say the exact same thing- they only work while you take them, soon as you stop normal hormone processes begin again. So worse case for a kid who goes on them then later changes their mind is a delayed puberty. Not ideal but hardly life threatening either and certainly not child abuse. }}

by Mrs Figg Mon May 02, 2022 7:33 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Gender dysphoria is a form of mental disorder.- Figg

{{ I couldnt disagree more. Being trans is no more a mental illness than being gay, lesbian or straight. To imply anyone who is trans is mentally ill does seem like an outrageous claim to me.

Then take that up with the NHS which gave me that information. Nobody mentioned mental illness, its a disorder, homosexuality is not a disorder or a mental illness.

As to females being more hostile about it, why do you say its an outrageous claim when you immediately go on to agree that this is the case as women have, in your words, more to lose. I dont agree with that either. I dont see why a way forward cant be found that respect both trans and womens rights. They shouldnt be mutually exclusive or have to infringe on each other.

I still want proof that females are 'more hostile' but you have skirted the issue. The facts and reality is that women do indeed have more to lose, but that doesn't make them 'more hostile' does it.

As to blockers being permanent- youll need to supply the proof of that as Ive been all over official medical journals on this including the British Medical Journal and they all say the exact same thing- they only work while you take them, soon as you stop normal hormone processes begin again. So worse case for a kid who goes on them then later changes their mind is a delayed puberty. Not ideal but hardly life threatening either and certainly not child abuse.

"a long-term study by the United Kingdom’s leading facility for treating gender-dysphoric children found otherwise. Contrary to common beliefs about puberty-blocking drugs, the majority of children who take them do not resume puberty. In a Dec. 2 preprint of the study from the Tavistock and Portman National Health Service Foundation Trust, all but one child treated for gender dysphoria with puberty-blocking drugs went on to take cross-sex hormones to alter their sex characteristics permanently. The study also showed that children’s bone density and normal growth flatlined with puberty blockers as compared to their peers, and participants reported no improvement in their psychological well-being. The findings support a growing body of evidence showing the harm and irreparable damage of experimental medical treatments for children with gender dysphoria. The U.K. High Court issued a landmark ruling on Dec. 1 requiring doctors to seek a court order before administering puberty-blocking drugs to children under 16. The plaintiff, Keira Bell, 23, argued the Tavistock Center did not adequately warn her as a teenager of the irreversible damages of such hormone treatment. The judges said doctors failed to provide adequate scientific basis for the treatment or explain their long-term effects on children. They also chastised the center for its lack of record-keeping, including tracking the proportion of children who go on to take cross-sex hormones.

Again, you need to do more research. They are experimenting on children. I will tell you now that this is a scandal in the making which will be as big as the blood and maternity scandals. its just a matter of time, but it will happen.

https://wng.org/roundups/study-effects-of-puberty-blockers-can-last-a-lifetime-1617220389

}}

by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 02, 2022 7:50 pm

{{ That seems to be one study which was dodgy on a number levels. The Dutch study has much better acceptance it seems and isnt plagued by questions about record keeping or anything else - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20646177/
https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf

There is still a lot of research on long term effects to be done, thats true of any medicine less than a lifetime in age as you cant have a lifetimes of study for it, but the basics are they only stop hormones whilst on them, for permanent changes you need to take gender affirming hormones, which are permanent. I wonder if the two are being commonly muddled and conflated as same thing? }}

by halfwise Mon May 02, 2022 9:01 pm

Once the bone structure is formed, it won't unform and go a different direction just because you changed hormones. Breasts, hair, yes. But not bones and likely not other things as well.

by Mrs Figg Mon May 02, 2022 9:47 pm

Surely the point is that all this is experimental and not based on long term studies. The Tavistock and Mermaids are making it up as they go along, they are experimenting on kids, and in the case of Tavistock are being sued by children. maybe that's why the government are now holding an inquiry into Tavistock.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon May 02, 2022 10:00 pm

{{ Tavistock seem dodgy as anything, from what I could see theres a lot of questions over their study- thats why I pointed to the Dutch one as it seems to have broad acceptance and doesn't have all the issues the Tavistock one does.

Halfy- bone continues to grow and develop until approx age 25. So it would be possible to offset puberty by several years and still have bone development afterwards. Though in the Dutch study all the volunteers who underwent the hormone therapy also went onto to full permanent gender switching when adults. So in the case of that study it was clearly not a whim, phase or fad or peer pressure for those involved as all are now fully trans women.

But more importantly to this thread I still recommend folk give the radio play in question a listen for themselves. For me it shows how to handle these matters well in Who with proper characters. And I dont see why Who shouldnt have a trans character if it can have gay characters (Jack/Bill/Clara) and straight relationships front and centre (10/Rose, Amy/Rory/ River/11/12 without it being seen as just there to indoctrinate children.}}

by Mrs Figg Mon May 02, 2022 11:08 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ And I dont see why Who shouldnt have a trans character if it can have gay characters (Jack/Bill/Clara) and straight relationships front and centre (10/Rose, Amy/Rory/ River/11/12 without it being seen as just there to indoctrinate children.}}

The introduction of gay/trans characters is purely for teen/adult viewers because children under a certain age will have no idea what adult sexuality is. Actually I have no idea why adult sexuality should be shoehorned into children's TV. What's it for?

by Pettytyrant101 Tue May 03, 2022 4:44 am

{{ I dont get why having a trans character means its suddenly 'adult sexuality'. Isnt heterosexuality adult sexuality too? Wasn't it adult with 10 and Rose, or Amy and Rory? They got married- if you can have not only heterosexuals but the whole official marriage ceremony for them, sex in the TARDIS and then conceived River who Amy gave birth to, then having a trans character doesn't suddenly make it adult sexuality as if it wasn't before somehow.
Besides Who is not children's television, its family tv, for all ages, which is why due to a quirk of the BBC its made by the drama department not the children's department and always has been.}}

by **Amarië** Tue May 03, 2022 6:29 am

I'm with Petty. Also kids know they are different long before they are teens.

I was so happy when Captain Jack showed up and 10 was just normal about it, even kissed him. I guess I must have been in my early teens? I was glad because it was normal, as it should be, it was fine and no big deal. I saw my own views and it felt good. It's not just about showing characters that are like you, it’s also about showing a world you can relate to.

by Mrs Figg Tue May 03, 2022 6:38 pm

You both are confusing gay characters, which I agree is a positive thing, with the trans issue. They are two very different things. People don't choose to be gay, its not a lifestyle choice, children are gay when they are born. I look at gay marriage as the same as heterosexual marriage. Its the same thing. Therefore gay characters for me are the same as straight characters. The gay or straight characters in Who don't go round advertising their sexuality because their sexuality have nothing to do with the story. They are just people in a story. Sex has no place in a kids TV show. What I object to is the glamorisation and normalisation of a mental disorder to children. People with gender disorders are not the same as gay people who do not have a disorder or any type. I think the LGB community has woken up to this and have tried to separate themselves from the T and Q, as gay peoples rights are being eroded and gay people are being cancelled. That is why the LGB Alliance was formed, primarily to protect gay people from trans rights activists who were threatening Lesbians calling them "sexual racists" for refusing to have sex with them. I kid you not.
Anyway, this is a very difficult topic and the more you research the darker and more weird it gets.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue May 03, 2022 6:59 pm

{{ For me I don't think someone realising they are trans is in any different from someone realising they are gay or knowing they are straight. Seems like all the same thing to me.

And when Captain Jack first appeared in Who he did advertise his sexuality, there were several scenes where it was the point of them - flirting with Rose when they first meet, the sexual dancing euphuism, his patting of the other solders bottom and then going to 'distract the guard', his story to his ship computer about ending up with sleeping with both his executioners who were a married couple and more I'm sure I'm forgetting and it continues throughout his subsequent appearances.
And Bill's detractors accused the show of using her character to push a gay agenda and accused the character of mentioning her sexuality all the time, not true but still goes to show.
Being gay or pan sexual or whatever you want to call it for these characters is definitely advertised and is a important component of those characters.
And it no different in this radio play with the trans character, its part of their character but its not all or even the main thing about them any more than its for Jack or Bill, firstly they are a well written engaging character, who happens to be trans and being trans is important in their life. Its not like Chibnall Who where its all clumsy and terribly written.
As I mentioned before it reminds me of RTD in its leanings in terms of character writing, if not quite to that standard but then few are. But its miles above Chibnall.}}

by halfwise Tue May 03, 2022 8:01 pm

I don't think you can call trans a disorder and say gay is not. To call it a disorder is to say it can be "cured". Is that the case? I'll admit I haven't read about it, but I don't think that's the case. Trans people feel trapped in the wrong body, and the 'cure' is to change the body as much as possible. The reason I don't call it a disorder is because the feelings won't go away with psychotherapy or other types of mental treatment. If anything it's more of a physical disorder (though the line between mental and physical is not clear or even a sensible way of looking at things in many cases.)

by Mrs Figg Tue May 03, 2022 8:48 pm

From everything I have read, and I have done quite a bit, the experts say that being gay is in no way a mental disorder or illness. However the experts do say that gender dysphoria is a disorder. This is because gender itself is a social construct. Biological sex is not a social construct and same sex attraction is not a social construct. Gender stereotypes such as wearing pink and having long hair for females and being butch and having short hair for males is not innate its constructed by our society, therefore trans women want to look like a stereotypical version of 'woman' wear women's clothes and grow their hair long. So gender dysphoria is the need to look female and use societies cliches of what a woman looks like. Drag queens take this to extremes, they use the tropes of stereotypical hyper-femininity and also exhibit typically male behaviour of aggression at the same time. If you have ever watched Drag Race you will see they are all aggressive and exhibit the worst aspects of 'feminine' behaviour such as 'being a bitch', actually I think it is pure misogyny. But to go back to the argument, this is why the banning of conversion therapy was a good thing because gay people cannot be 'converted' as it creates great harm, but convesrion therapy for trans people is not necessarily harmful as it is talking therapy which may weed out autistic people or people who are just confused about gender stereotypes. In the old days tomboys were not seen as trans men, just tomboys, these days girls would be encouraged to think they are 'in the wrong body' and that is a tragedy waiting to happen imo.

by halfwise Tue May 03, 2022 9:07 pm

I think you may be missing half of it. Some trans people may only be gravitating towards the social definition of gender, while others feel that the penis or vagina is an alien part of their anatomy. Wouldn't know what the percentage breakdown is.

by Mrs Figg Tue May 03, 2022 9:40 pm

oh sure, some trans people must feel trapped in the wrong body and hate their genitals enough to chop them off, but that is part of the gender dysphoria. I think that is rare though, I think most trans people don't have any surgery or go through transition. You can't after all change sex, you can only change the appearances which may help psychologically.