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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:48 am

{{ Figures for series 12 so far that we have covering first 3 episodes-
Overnight      +7          audience share       timeshift
4.88m -      6.89m     (25.7%)                  +2.01m
4.60m -      6.07m     (26.2%)                  +1.47m
4.19m -      5.38m     (23.8%)                  +1.19m

Whats particulary worrying is not just the downward trend in those watching, but in those bothering to catch up, which during Capladi era was usually around the 2m mark.  }}

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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:56 pm

Petty you should write a thesis about Doctor Who. Get Glasgow University to give you a distance learning degree and give you funding to do it. As Scotland seems to be big on computer gaming techies and creativity why not do a part-time degree. You could easily write 15-30,000 words on Who. It seems a waste to just leave your hard work and thoughts on here. Very Happy
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:36 am

{{ Trailer for the blu-ray release of Season 26 of Classic Who.The final one of classic Who and Mccoys best as the 7th Doctor (Ace's too). One of the tradegies of the axing of classic Who was that they did it just when it was finding its feet again. In Ace we had a companion pretty close to the modern one we got in Rose (not in personality but in emphasis in the story), and in story-telling and direction terms it was also heading in the direction NuWHo would eventually take it. }}


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Post by Mrs Figg Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:26 pm

wow I made it through first 5 minutes. It was actively unpleasant. Worst acting I have ever seen on telly, ever. Horrible fake 'danger' music, dead-eyed wooden acting or boggle-eyed OTT acting, and a strange static pace like trying to walk through mud. Added to that a creeping boredom of the dentist waiting room variety. Terrible!

Spoiler:
poor Jack Harkness with that abysmal dialogue   No not even Jack can save this crap  
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Post by Amarië Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:41 pm

Oh. I had forgotten there was a new episode. Yey.

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Post by Mrs Figg Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:00 pm

Spoiler:
Diversity Doctor.  Rolling Eyes  and just when you think it couldn't get any worse, it does. Next Doctor is a Black Lesbian dwarf with one leg 
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Post by Amarië Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:34 pm

Watching. This is the worst acting yet.

Woman to woman. Marvelous. Rolling Eyes

...

Flat team structure? Emphasis on flat, obviously.

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Post by Amarië Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:01 pm

Can we
Spoiler:
keep black Doc?

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:24 pm

Wow so humble Baker is Rolling Eyes

Ya can't help but like him anyway.

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Post by malickfan Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:27 pm

I caught a couple of minutes earlier...the acting/dialogue was every bit as terrible as I've been told, had no interest in watching it further.

Big Spoiler:
So, John Barrowman waits 10 years to come back and apparently gets a five minute cameo to spout technobabble and pander to every RTD trope they could remember

As for this new Doctor...I gather her Tardis is also a police box on the outside? That seems to rule her out as being Pre-Hartnell, his tardis only changed to a police box when he got to earth.

I'm guessing she's from a parallel universe (Big Finish have created a few parallel universe doctors themselves), maybe since Gallifrey has been destroyed the rules of time/barriers between universe have been destroyed or something?

In the 8th Doctor books (1997-2005) Gallifrey is also destroyed, with no timelords around to govern the rules of time, one of the knock on effects is all kinds of weird alternate timelines being created and events going wrong.
 

...I should note, that as curious as I am about these spoilers I still don't have much desire to catch up on the Whittaker era. Laughing Razz

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Post by malickfan Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:41 pm

Regarding the big surprise spoiler from tonight's episode, this related rumour was reported a while back on Gallireybase:

Spoiler:
The Timeless Child is the Doctor, and is their "first life" per se. As a child, they were unkillable and could regenerate endlessly. Found on an unknown planet, they were taken back to Gallifrey, where their abilities allowed Gallifreyans to become Time Lords. The character "Ruth" is (apparently) an earlier life of the Doctor from an all-female pre-hartnell regeneration cycle, and it is revealed at some point she had her memory wiped.

...The source of this leak apparently reported several other rumours which have proven to be true.

Apparently we are also getting a Mary Shelley/Frankenstein/Cyberman story later in the series...which is something Big Finish already did with the 8th Doctor several years ago (he actually travelled with Mary for several years)

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Post by Mrs Figg Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:57 pm

still cant get over how bad that episode was :facepalm:
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Post by Forest Shepherd Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:19 am

Well, sounds like I made the right choice to not watch the new series.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:37 am

{{ Well that was, something. Fugitive of the Judoon was a very odd episode, in many ways its the best episode of the entire Chibnal era, its the one that feels most like Who, Jodie is at her best so far as the Doctor and its not afraid to delve into the Who lore (and anyone who actually read my history of Gallifrey above would have had plenty to ponder from the reveals we got),and yet...

Spoiler:
Its very much a weird pastiche of RTD era and Moffat.
It opens in very RTD era style, its domestic, we are introduced to Ruth (another black actress of course) and her husband, she lives in a small town where everyone is super friendly with her and she always has a smile for them, and she even treats the super creepy stalker cafe owner who is in love with her with nonchalant humour. Said cafe owner is also convinced that Ruth's husband is not who claims, but this is dismissed as part of his stalkerish behaviour in light handed fashion.
Anyhow the Judoon soon turn up, our intergalactic rhino headed police (and I have to say they did look good, the main Juddon (who it turned out for no reason at all that mattered was of course a female Judoon) was a very nice piece of good old fashioned animatronics) and start looking for a dangerous fugitive.
The Doctor and co turn up to find out whats going on, as the Judoon are acting out their jurisdiction and then Grahame gets teleported away, followed not long after by Yaz and Ryan,leaving the Doctor with Ruth and her dodgy husband, who is indeed dodgy, and gets killed, but he is not who the judoon are after, he was just her companion, they are after Ruth.

So far so Rtd, domestic stuff, aliens on earth, but now the twists start getting thrown about starting with that companion line. And here it turns into Mofffat Who territory.
The 'fam' have been transported away by non other than Captain Jack Harkness, who was trying to transport the Doctor but kept getting the wrong one thanks to the Juddon shield round the town.
Jack flirts a lot, mistakes Grahame at first for the Doctor, and finally transports them all back with a warning to the Doctor to beware of the lone cyberman and not to give it what it wants, setting up something nothing to do with this episode.

Meanwhile the Doctor and Ruth get surrounded by Judoon, and Ruth suddenly turns all super agent and instinctively takes them all out, whilst getting flashback memories to a lighthouse she grew up and outside of which her parents are born.
On the car journey there the Doctor questions Ruth about her childhood, and gets very factual based answers.
At the lighthouse the Doctor decides to dig up the graves and finds seemingly her TARDIS buried there, or a version of it, Ruth smashes the light in the lighthouse and its basically the chameleon arch, she is Time Lord in disguise, but not just any Time Lord, she is the Doctor!

But which Doctor? Well thats the thing, Ruth/Doctor assumes 13 is in her future as she doesnt know her, and 13 assumes Ruth/Doctor is in her future as she doesn't remember being her.
The situation appears impossible, yet they are both Doctor.

The Judoon then capture them and the person who hired them, Cat I think she is called, who made a good villain and shame they are about to kill her. At turns out to be a Gallfreyean (not a Time Lord note) and she is pretty aggressive and from her words that she is 'serving the Gallifryean Empire' it would place her and Ruth very early in Gallifrey history, either during the dark years of Rassilon's empire conquering phase,or possibly even early with Sisterhood in charge of Gallifrey. Likewise this would make Ruth a very early version too, too early for the 1st Doctor  by thousands of years.
Ruth also like the 1st Doctor refers to the TARDIS as a ship and she is also more ruthless and deadly, rigging the gun to kill Cat when she tries to fire it.
But before that the Doctor meets minds with her and shows her what she saw of Gallifrey destroyed, with neither the Gallifreyean or Ruth knowing about it, further adding to hem being in the past.
With Cat dead they escape the Judoon, Ruth/Doctor sends 13 back to earth and she reunites with family similarly transported back to earth by Jack. Now there arent many possibilities for Ruth- either she is somehow lying or has been altered into believing she is the Doctor (and physically altered to match) or she is from sort of alternative universe with a different Doctor and Gallifrey history, or she is form before the 1st Doctor before she turned into Hartnell Doctor and that the real 1st Doctor was in fact a l a large loud black woman.
And we end on a scene in the TARDIS with Doctor telling the fam they dont know her at all and that time is swirling round her and something is coming for her, and the fam reasserting that they are her fam and will stick by her no matter what.
And then they go off for adventures and next weeks presumably unassociated story.



So overall on paper it snot the worst thing, bar the replacing the 1st Doctor, if thats what it is, which would be awful and unnecessarily divisive.

So why did I think it didnt quite work?
Well it smacks of desperation, everything felt like a pastiche of something else.
Ruth and her Husbands and the guy in the cafe they felt like RTD characters but not quite with observational skill and knack for character nuance that allows Rtd to make a rounded feeling realistic person in very few lines of dialogue.
When Jack appears all his dialogue feels like a rehash of Captain Jacks greatest hits, he's flirty, but dialled up to 12, he tell them an outrageous tale, that sim,ailr to the one he told his computer about his executioners in his first appearance in Who, but its not as witty or as well written as that one, he reuses Jack lines like 'looking good' as if they are a catchphrase. And its almost all his dialogue, delivered in this same dialled up to max knowing I'm Jack, fan favourite and IM back, kind ofway. At time I felt it bordered on being a parody of Jack.
And that the other thing, the reveals in this episode are often not so much reveals as gotcha surprises, especially Jack- there's no set up to it, no hints or build up just bam its JACK!

And I suspect the reveal Ruth was the Doctor felt similar. Talking of Ruth I have an issue or two there- not that she is black and a woman, but that I didn't think her acting was great, stilted and wooden, though I felt she did better once like the Doctor, but some of her line delivery was very questionable. And that unfortunately makes one wonder if it was more important she was a black woman than a good actor.
Anyhow the actual reveal I thought was one of the things the script for once handled well,the hint are there to look for, just like John Smith she is very likely and friendly, though here they dial that up to 12 too, like John Smith when questioned n their childhood the information is fact based and doesn't sound natural, and like 10 the companion is in love with the Doctor and devotedly in their life to protect them in their disguised form, and Ruth has instinctive reflexes and skills beyond a human,like John Smith throwing the cricket ball. But it also adds to that sense that everything in this episode is a call back to when it was done better.

The other issue with trying to review this episode is that its a bit like watching the first 1/3 of a film and being expected to review the whole film. Until we can see where this all going, and discover if Ruth really is a rewrite of Who lore to make the first Doctor a black woman, then judgement will have to be reserved.

In terms of judging this as an episode, its got shock value for sure, and Jodie is her best as the script gives her very little babble or humour and she is more serious and grounded, which I always feel works best for her and I wish they'd just drop entirely all attempts to mimic 10 and 11's speech styles and humour- Chibnal cant write one-liners, jokes are not his thing.
On the acting front the fam are as wooden as ever and dont get anything to do of note (youd think space police Yaz would get a bigger part, but no, her policing gets a reference but thats about it), and the two best actors in it, the husband and the Gallifreyean both get killed off.
The episode looks good, there is some nice shots in this one, particularity at the lighthouse, and the Judoon look good too.

So the best of Chibbers and Jodie so far, and yet it still feels like its part parodying whats come before and depending where they go with it it has the potential to be the start of something interesting or deliberately divisive. The dialogue is often stilted and unnatural and the delivery of it equally so.

Things which imply Ruth is a pre-Hartnell Doctor- her TARDIS is very 1st Doctor and the Time rotor is exact and they make a point of showing it in close up as the establishing shot of her TARDIS. She refers to the TARDIS as 'ship' just as Hartnell always did. She has no knowledge of a sonic screwdriver, which wasnt first seen till 2nd Doctor era. She has a similar Hartnell ruthless streak. The Galifreyean they meet hunting Ruth down would appear to be from a time of the Galliffreyan Empire.
Things which point to her being alternative version- her TARDIS is shaped like a police box which only happens during Hartnels time. Neither Doctor can remember being the other.
}}

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Post by Nagual Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:45 am

Spoiler:
They should have picked Ruth to play the Doctor from the start. That's my take from it.
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Post by Amarië Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:51 pm

Nagual wrote:
Spoiler:
They should have picked Ruth to play the Doctor from the start. That's my take from it.

Amen!

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:15 pm

Spoiler:
I think the whole thing was cheap. it cheapens Captain Jack, it was done for cheap shocks, his dialogue was cheap, the reasons he was even there was cheap. I have seen a few fanbois wetting their pants to see Jack, as if it wasn't a desperate attempt to up the dire ratings. Because it was a cheap attempt to up the ratings. It cheapens any future appearance of Jack as it was done for the wrong reasons. All Jack did was stand in front of a timey-wimey machine, twiddle a few knobs and deliver cheap and cheesy dialogue. The actor should have refused to pander to this crap. As for large loud diversity Doctor or LLDD as I will now call her, she immediately made fake Jodie Doctor shrink into total insignificance. I have NEVER in the 50 years of Who seen the Doctor look so much like a PATHETIC PIPSQUEAK. She literally shrank into a gawping gurning useless pipsqueak. It was like LLDD was the 'real' one and Fake Jodie Doctor (FJD) was just a member of the public who has won a trip to visit the BBC production of Doctor Who and has been given the chance to 'act'. and the terrible thing was, no matter how unsympathetic, abrasive and wooden acted the LLDD  was, she looked 100% more the Doctor than FJD could ever hope to be. The 'fam' was horrific, its as if they are automatons just saying their lines, Ryan was particularly wooden. Petty is right, its a pastiche of RTD and Moffat done by desperate hack writers. truly terrible stuff. 
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:34 pm

Spoiler:
and the terrible thing was, no matter how unsympathetic, abrasive and wooden acted the LLDD  was, she looked 100% more the Doctor than FJD could ever hope to be.
- Figg

{{
Spoiler:
I have to agree there, whilst Jodie was at her best as the Doctor so far thanks to the nature of the script not giving her babble time or bouncy up and down excitied time or a social lecture to deliver at the audience, but its not a high bar at this point. And despite the other Doctor having some awful line delivery (when she first goes into her TARDIS and calls her 'old girl' the line was so badly delivered I actually wondered if the actrees knew that she was supposed to be addressing the TARDIS andnot just talking out loud about herself) yet she still when she was doing the Doctor stuff towered over Jodies weak Doctor, somehow.

I am rather dreadinjg a 60th special multi-Doctor stroy- can you imagine Jodie trying to hold the screen next to Eccelston, Tennant, Smith and Capaldi?! Youd be lucky to notice she was there.
}}

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Post by halfwise Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:16 pm

Well, I haven't seen any clips, but it seems to me that if they were going for diversity they may as well have gone all the way with a blustery black woman. Blown it out of the park. Instead they went halfway - got scared by the idea of a woman and went with someone who felt safe. Problem is, the Doctor isn't 'safe'.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:26 pm

{{ Here you go Halfy- short though cant find anything longer yet.

Spoiler:



Incidentally I think the line "sorry, struggling with this" rather sums up Jodies time as the Doctor! }}

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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:35 pm

I think Halfy is right, if they had started with the blustery black Doctor first it might have worked out better. She has a lot more presence than Jodie, even though I am sure there are better actors who could fit the bill. A Whoopi Goldberg type could have really added something fresh to the mix. Instead they chose a boring beige Doctor.
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Post by malickfan Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:41 pm

Whoopi Goldberg as the Doctor?

Although I don't particularly want a non-British/Irish actor/actress to play the Doctor I think she'd do a great job, not really someone I'd have thought of, but a very interesting choice Nod

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Post by halfwise Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:24 pm

That new woman is definitely an improvement, though not totally there. There needs to be something a touch fey about the Doctor, and she's a bit too business-like.

Not that I'm a Doctor expert compared to the rest of you lot, but some things are just obvious.

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All New Who - Page 4 Empty Re: All New Who

Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:38 pm

{{ Halfy that rather depends where and when this other Doctor is from- if it is a pre-Hartnell 1st Doctor Doctor then he was not exactly fey at the start, he was going to cave a guys skull in with a rock because his inury was slowing them down, he kidnapped his first two human 'companions' and could be condecending and mocking to people he considered of lesser intellect. He was initially very down to earth oddly, he was distant and mysterious and grumpy yes, but not initially in a particualrly quirky or alien fashion beyond what Hartnell brought to the perfomance, it was over the 1st Doctors time with humans around and accidently finding himself saving worlds and stuff all the time that he began to loosen up and let those Doctorish, quirky, often childlike aspects emerge. And they were very much cemented as major traits by the 2nd Doctor, Patrick Troughton.
On top of that if you read my history of Gallifrey from above (which I of course recommend) you will see that the early Gallifreyan years especially under the Sisterhood then Rassilon's initial reign were not nice periods of time at all. }}}}

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All New Who - Page 4 Empty Re: All New Who

Post by halfwise Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:50 pm

Speaking of female Doctors, a youngish physics professor published a theory in 2011 about gravitons having mass, which may solve the dark energy problem. I can't claim to follow her argument in detail even though it's a TED talk, but she has a somewhat delightful personal style.


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