The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

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Pettytyrant101
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:08 am

{{ I dont see that in what she said- "The dude swinging his penis and tits is nothing other than a pervert and a flasher." That sounds like someone who wants something banned to me, and after arguing Sadowtz should not be that seems contradictory to me. I dont recall Figg calling Sadowtz a pervert and a flasher for getting his cock out- I remember her defending his right to do so. }}

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Post by Lancebloke Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:20 am

To be honest, I think Figgy made it perfectly clear why she was passed given she said personal insults.

'You sound like a grumpy old granny'

'youre sounding like one of those letters signed 'outraged' that you read in the Daily Mail!'

Whether you meant them in jest or not it does come across as quite condescending. Your arguments seem generally OK to me (not knowing anything about the Sadowitz thing but having seen a lot of the rest) so maybe leave the personal jabs out of it?

Arguments stand and fall on their own merits with needing to call people things.

On the other hand Figgy... you pretty much did that to the person in question. Flasher and a pervert are clearly attacks on that person's character without really knowing what the circumstances behind the whole thing were. They may very well be a pervert and/or a flasher but I am not sure this clip can be used to confirm or deny.
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Post by halfwise Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:28 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ I dont see that in what she said- "The dude swinging his penis and tits is nothing other than a pervert and a flasher." That sounds like someone who wants something banned to me, and after arguing Sadowtz should not be that seems contradictory to me. I dont recall Figg calling Sadowtz a pervert and a flasher for getting his cock out- I remember her defending his right to do so. }}

Exactly - you are again ignoring the subtlety.  She doesn't think Sadowitz should be banned but does think piano guy should be banned because she's not basing her judgement on nudity. She's basing her judgement on trashiness which is independent of nudity but becomes a bad thing when combined with nudity.  She is calling the censors hypocrites because they made a judgement based on nudity in one case and not the other; but in her eyes they got it backwards, or at the least placed a high bar and then allowed others with less merit to walk under it.

I understand the Petty argument that you shouldn't be offended at something that has always been offensive, but I'm trying to get you to understand the other argument and not insult her for it, which in fact you did (as Lance pointed out) whether you felt you were at the time or not.

{{Figgs forgive me if I miscontrue your position.  Perhaps it's my position and you are saying something different. You may well think Sadowitz should be banned as well, but that's too open and shut and logical to be any fun for the purposes of arguing with Petty.}}

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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:39 pm

ok so my position is this,

I am one of the least prudish people you will ever meet. Being an art historian I appreciate nudity and the shock value of art and film. I can sit through the gratuitous sex scenes in GoT without tutting and writing to the Daily Mail. Nudity and sexuality is not the problem.

'Whataboutism' is always a weak argument. Listing the thousands of times that people did outrageous things on TV does not an argument make. The list is endless. using The Word as an example doesn't work because it was made as late night shock value for people stumbling out of the pub at midnight. There was no hypocrisy or sexism involved, The Word was just yoof culture of the 90s trying to be edgy. Idem, Eurotrash, men and women were equally ridiculed and parodied, it was light hearted fun.

I am against banning comedians whose performances include nudity as a fundamental part of their act and persona. Especially as adults go to see these acts knowing what it entails.
Sadowitz was banned after some people called him perverted and felt 'unsafe'. A man getting his penis out was deemed totally unacceptable, but a trans person getting his penis out was deemed, 'brave and beautiful'. The hypocrisy is astounding.

I do think that Jordan Gray is a narcissistic, sexist, flasher. The lyrics to his song were deeply misogynistic and disturbing, saying that as a trans woman his is 'better' than biological women who have 'droopy tits'. To see the idiot audience laughing and cheering was sickening. This is not art, its gender ideology gone perverse and sick. It is not a highlight of our culture.

Calling me names will not win an argument.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:52 pm

{{A man getting his penis out was deemed totally unacceptable, but a trans person getting his penis out was deemed, 'brave and beautiful'.- Figg

That sounds an awful lot Figg like the real problem here is that Sadowitz act is hetrosexual and this persons act is trans- and its the trans content you are objecting to and think should be disallowed and banned whilst Sadowtz hetrosexual cock out act should not be. Your problem seems to be one act challenges or mocks gender. I think the freedom to do that must have equal merit as any other right to mock or offend- and noone should be mistaken that Sadowtiz is very much a comedian who works on shock and deliberate offense and uses mockery of all sorts of folk all the time.

Also its hypocrictical by who? The people who banned Sadowtz have nothing to do with channel 4 or who they hire or what they broadcast. Had channel 4 banned him and then allowed this act I would agree with you its about hypocrisy, but as they have nothing to do with each other I dont see hypocrisy I hear transphobia. }}

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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:23 pm

That's because you want to hear transphobia.

Who said Jordan Gray is gay? I have no idea whether he is gay or straight.

Many trans people are straight, and many trans women claim to be 'lesbians' aka straight men.

It has nothing to do with being gay or straight.

It has nothing to do with transphobia, but as with anything regarding the trans issue, anyone who questions is immediately called transphobic to shut down any debate with zero proof. Anyone who questions is told there is no debate, and you have now not only personally insulted me you are calling me names yet again. Being called a transphobe is getting really tedious.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:35 pm

{{ I say it sounds like transphobia as your initial post highlighted the fact the person in question had tits and a cock, which is only of any relevance if you wish to make the point the act is trans and you said plainly "a trans person getting his penis out"

Seems rather clear therefore you are talking about this act in the context of it being a trans person and that their act involves mocking in some way tradtional gender - 'saying that as a trans woman his is 'better' than biological women who have 'droopy tits'.'

I havent seen the act I have no idea if thats meant as face value or if its meant to be delibretely offensive or if its satire on expected gender stereotypes. It doesnt really matter. I never went to the Edinburgh Fringe to see Sadowtz act either before it got shut down but I defend the right of either act. Even if I personally might find some things offensive- I like Frankie Boyle for example but I thought his joke about Jordan and her handicapped child raping her was in poor taste and unnecessary, but I wouldnt call for his act or him to be banned for doing so. I just personally didnt like it- and theres a big difference between an individual not liking something and saying someone should be cancelled on principle just because you dislike the content of their act. And when as you seem to be, you base that dislike on the message of the act - ie in this case a trans message, then calling for cancelling on those grounds is for me anti-trans.}}


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Post by halfwise Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:15 pm

Have seen neither of acts, or even either of these people doing any act, and since Figgs has clarified, I have nothing more to say.  So I turn the stage over to Gilbert. The first video is just a voice recording of the whole thing.



(You can find commentary on why comics revere this moment, I think it may need to be put in context. https://www.thedailybeast.com/remembering-gilbert-gottfrieds-iconic-filthy-utterly-hilarious-aristocrats-joke)

This is more commentary but with snippets of video.


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Post by Mrs Figg Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:49 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{

- ie in this case a trans message, then calling for cancelling on those grounds is for me anti-trans.}}


In this case the 'trans message' was hatred towards women. Calling that out is not transphobia, its having a stance against double standards and hate speech.

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Post by Mrs Figg Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:16 pm

If any woman had stripped off naked and played the piano with her undercarriage flaps, she would have been chased out of the country with torches and pitchforks.
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Post by Mrs Figg Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:27 pm

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:37 pm

{{ This just matches so well. Oddily enough when Truss was giving her leaving speech I was thinking of the Tucker bit when Nicola is forced to resign, plus his line "the ending of a chapter of a very thin book noone enjoyed reading" pretty much sums up the Truss Premiership perfectly! }}




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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:26 pm

{{ Just to mention that whilst the climate conference is going on the temperature here in Scotland, in November, at NIGHT is 15 degrees. Something is very wrong, thats at least 10 degrees too high for the time of year. Plants are putting out new green leaves they are so confused.}}

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