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Post by halfwise Wed May 22, 2024 1:51 pm

I don't even remember that trousers line. Egads, must have blocked it out.

Lessee, they definitely gave Bilbo enough time to look significantly aged, so I don't think the 17 years will be a problem since the activities can easily be compressed to a shorter period of years. I think they'd just leave out the Aragorn/Arwen stuff already covered.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 22, 2024 2:13 pm

{{ There's a fair bit of mess when it comes to introducing elements in this time period from Tolkien and making it fit with their version. It not only moves when Arwen and Aragorn got betrothed from the 2nd Age to the 3rd, and right before the Council at that, but if they bring in Elrond's objections to it and his laying down of the bar that she can marry no less than the King of Gondor and Arnor, which is what happens regards their relationship during this period in Tolkien, it contradicts what they've already done in the films. There, there is no such bar set and Elrond simply says no to it and even then does not voice his objections to it until right after the Council and it immediately results in Aragorn going along with it and trying to give Arwen back the gem she gave him at their betrothal scene, right before he embarks with the Fellowship.
Because they decided to tell that relationship in 'real time' within the films time frame, rather than flashbacks or such, and just shifted a lot of stuff forward in time by huge amounts that they then altered to fit and suit their reluctant Aragorn, making Elrond an obstacle to them, its much harder now to tell Tolkien's version of events within the time frame of the Gollum films setting.
But can they feasibly include Aragorn as a main character in this time period and not bring in his relationship with Awen? I don't think they can or will just ignore it, but if they want it to fit their version it's going to be a lot different from the one Tolkien wrote.
Then there is an issue with sticking more time in for the 17 year gap, in the film version they seem to have moved Bilbo's party forward from Autumn into summer going on the looks of the Shire, for that nice green bright summer feel, and thus giving Gandalf plausible time to ride to Minas Tirith and back before the end of Autumn, as film Frodo seems to leave about the same time as book Frodo and the seasons follow the books pretty much in the films from here on. That there is only a small time gap is also reinforced by the fact the Ring is still sealed in the same envelope it was when Gandalf left, and has just been left where Frodo put it, and hasn't had time to even gather dust. So there are issues there too in tying what Tolkien wrote happened during that 17 year gap, and what PJ's version has already told viewers happened. }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 22, 2024 2:24 pm



{{ And these are the people we are trusting will write a good Tolkien film? Really? Evil or Very Mad }}

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Post by halfwise Wed May 22, 2024 5:28 pm

Trying to remember if Bilbo looked significantly older when Frodo first meets him in Rivendell. Maybe not. I'll have to haul out the DVD and do a party/Rivendell comparison.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 22, 2024 6:59 pm

{{ In the film he looks much older, white hair, walking stick, but the implied excuse there is not the passage of time, barely any has passed in the films, it's that he has aged now he no longer has the Ring. They reinforce this by coopting a line from the book 'age has finally caught up with me' implying it all happened at once.
So they could work round that and just say yeah he was there years before Frodo left- but that contradicts other things in their films. That's the problem with doing this to Tolkien, his work is a tapestry, pull on a thread and you effect so many other bits, now the changes they made in LotR's don't agree with or fit the version of events Tolkien wrote they now want to use.}}

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Post by halfwise Wed May 22, 2024 9:06 pm

yeah the problem with the idea that "age catches up" quickly once you lose the ring would mean that Gollum would have to be little more than an animated corpse by the time he catches up to the fellowship.

Actually this does point out a problem with Tolkien's conception as well.  If life is supposed to pick up where it left off once one loses the ring, then shouldn't Gollum be staggering about with a cane after 80 years?  hmm... if the natural lifetime of a hobbit is perhaps 130 years then he'd be an age equivalent to about 100, which by scaling to human years of perhaps 70 would put him at 100*70/130 ~ 54 years old.  So okay, no cane.  I suppose it works since Gollum doesn't come across as either old or young.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed May 22, 2024 11:17 pm

{{ I dont have RotK to hand so can't check the Tale of Years to see if it includes a birth date for Gollum or not. But I always pictured his fishing trip with Deagol (were it humans) to be somewhere between 14 years old and 17 at most. So in Hobbit terms not yet their Coming of Age.

If so then Gollum would be effectively 'young' again when the Ring left him and may explain what Gandalf meant when he said Gollum started to regain some of his old strength, which eventually led him to leave the mountains and back into the world, granted driven by desire for the Ring, but not just that from Gandalf's words.
So he would in a weird way be younger than Frodo in hobbit years when they meet. Gollums life experience is very limited, he was young when he got driven out his home and hid himself away and he has been there most of the rest of his life alone. This youthfulness and lack of life experiences I think comes across in how Tolkien writes him. }}

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Post by halfwise Thu May 23, 2024 10:56 am

I think your calculations are off. Frodo is 50 years old when he leaves for Rivendell (33+17). Gollum would be 14+77 = 91 at least.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 23, 2024 2:24 pm

{{ Quite right I forgot to add the years between when he lost the Ring and Bilbo leaving - still puts him well within Hobbit lifespans though. }}

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Post by halfwise Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:57 pm

I suppose those who have read HOME already know that Bilbo was originally married and Frodo (then Bingo) was his son. Tolkien thought better of the idea.


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Post by chris63 Yesterday at 8:09 am


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Post by halfwise Yesterday at 1:32 pm

Funny that Tolkien described LotR as "bitter". I suppose I can see that mainly in the denoument, but I'd probably use words like melancholy and nostalgia rather than bitter.

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