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Post by halfwise on Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:42 pm

I'm no judge of these weighty matters, but since your point of view raises hope in my heart (as though to hear a voice far off) I will hold to my pronunciation and have no meethreel in my ear.

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Post by Amarië on Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:09 pm

halfwise wrote:Though I did just read in the appendices that 'i' was as in 'machine'.  Put me out of sorts.
My guess is that it was meant to show that it was "i sounding like ee", not "i sounding like eye". Rather than the length of the i.

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Post by Elthir on Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:25 pm

The "controversy" is that Tolkien would write i as in machine "irrespective of quantity" (duration) in Appendix E, but then later say (in an equally Tolkien-published source) that Sindarin short i should be rendered as in English sick --

-- that's a different quality to my ear. So the sound in question is not the same here, "irrespective of quantity" . . .

Which would explain why JRRT leaves out long i when he writes (back in Appendix E again): "In Sindarin long e, a, o had the same quality as the short vowels, being derived . . ."

And also help explain (though granted here he's speaking generally before he moves on to individual vowels) "The intended pronunciation is given in Appendix E to volume III but not perhaps with great clarity (my emphasis here).


I mean, that's the long and short of it Wink

Okay. I really just wanted to write the sentence above this one.

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Post by halfwise on Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:10 pm

Amarië wrote:
halfwise wrote:Though I did just read in the appendices that 'i' was as in 'machine'.  Put me out of sorts.
My guess is that it was meant to show that it was "i sounding like ee", not "i sounding like eye". Rather than the length of the i.

You mean it's supposed to be "meyethreyel"? That would put me equally out of sorts.

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Post by chris63 on Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:13 am




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Post by chris63 on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:11 pm

I've never heard about this. Why didn't his son Christopher finish it? Havnt watched it yet but that is what I would be asking.


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Post by halfwise on Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:07 pm

It's not uncommon knowledge, but Tolkien got depressed with it, and I'm sure Christopher felt it was best left undone. One shouldn't stain fantasy with too much reality.

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Post by Eldy on Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:04 pm

Tolkien never even finished the first chapter of The New Shadow (and it's not like he had an outline for anything further, not being that sort of writer). Christopher would have had to write basically the entire thing from scratch, which was never his M.O. as his father's literary executor and posthumous editor.
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Post by chris63 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:49 am


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Post by halfwise on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:12 pm

I wonder if while Tolkien was writing the Hobbit he actually identified the Necromancer with Sauron, or if that came later while working on LotR?  This commentator seems to think so, but I'm not so sure.

btw, that's one of the hottest pictures of Galadriel early on. Maybe it's her flower-girl expression that does it.

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Post by chris63 on Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:45 am

0

Some nice pictures in this video.




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Post by chris63 on Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:44 am


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Post by halfwise on Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:43 pm

I don't remember that Grima was seen marching with orcs towards Isengard. Will have to look that one up.

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Post by chris63 on Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:58 am




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Post by halfwise on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:04 pm

I like how Carl states that everything he says comes from Tolkien's writing and not his speculation... but when he quotes Tolkien he doesn't give the attribution!


Last edited by halfwise on Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by chris63 on Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:46 pm


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Post by halfwise on Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:31 pm

He makes a good case and it's sort of shocking this hasn't been played up before, especially by Tolkien who seems to imply Gollum's misstep is a sort of fate outside of Frodo's agency, except for sparing Gollum. If anything Tolkien seems to imply Gollum's misstep has more to do with the Valar than the ring as implied here.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:33 pm

{{ Ive always taken Frodo's words as being directly realted to Gollums death. Oaths are hugely important in ME. Isildur's curse on the men of Dunharrow led to them becoming undead for centuries, unable to find rest until the conditions of the curse are met- that they fulfill their original oath.
Where I dont quite agree with this video is that it was only the Ring speaking through Frodo. I personally feel it was Frodo, yes the Ring was the influencing factor and the 'control' on the curse if you like, but the sentiment I believe was entirely Frodo's, through the prism of his own growing desire for the Ring and to be Master.
The Ring was destroyed through the pity of Bilbo and Frodo allowing Gollum to live long enough to be at the right place at the right time. The Rings own treachery however was its undoing regards the curse. The Ring gives power according to stature. Frodo was never going to become a Dark Lord, he never had the inherent power or desire needed to start with but its hold over him, and his desire for it, and for it be his and his alone was enough for it to twist Frodo by removing his pity- it corrupted him as its designed to do, but in corrupting him it meant Frodo cursed Gollum- that I dont believe was 'intended' by the Ring- its a side effect of corrupting Frodo. The words of Frodo are the Ring using him according to his stature, and in effect the Ring curses itself to destruction should Gollum ever betray Frodo.
So pity let Gollum be there when needed, and the Rings corruption of Frodo instead of working to its advantage sealed its own fate.
Thats how I see it. }}

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:58 pm

good points Nod

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:15 am

Yeah that's a fun way of looking at it. Smile

...And a hard reminder that I'm due for a re-read! Film-Frodo is sadly lacking in cool moments.

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Post by halfwise on Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:44 pm

Book Frodo never came across as "cool" to me. He quickly becomes an over burdened, middle aged hobbit. He never has a triumphant heroic moment because anytime he shows strength it's in the midst of being nearly overcome by forces greater than himself - like defying the ringwraiths at the Ford of Bruinen. His most triumphant moment is on Mt Doom after Gollum attacks him: he strides off like a hero...and claims the Ring for himself.

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Post by azriel on Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:33 pm

Book Frodo is real Frodo, PJ's Frodo is the child we want to cuddle & protect, it keeps us watching & feeling we are looking out for him. Blah.
Same with Pippin, Merry & Sam. Tho Sam was hit much less with the idiot stick than Merry & Pippin were. ( I think )

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:14 am

Some of the blows smacked Sam as well, but he wasn't nearly as abused as in the Bakshi version lol.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:06 am

{{ PJ's Frodo is piss poor weak as shit character, dont like him much, lacks most of Frodo's characteristics in my view and almost all his courage and balls. Merry and Pippin are barely recognisable to their book equivelents. Sam is probably PJ's best but even he is missing depth, a part of which is the stupid choice to remove the class distinctions among hobbits, as Sam's sense of where he belongs in the pecking order informs a lot about how he thinks of himself, especially early on. }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:57 am


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