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Post by halfwise on Wed May 27, 2020 5:30 pm

When talking about the 3 couplings Tolkien meant those that were known, as in happened to famous people. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Nimrodel's maidens who were left behind when she jumped into the sea ended up cavorting with shepherds or some such. So it might have happened, but as no-names the word doesn't get around.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed May 27, 2020 5:39 pm

but as no-names the word doesn't get around.- Halfy

{{But thats a choice by the author, by Tolkien. They could have been as important as he liked. Afterall elves who chased the Silmarils to ME, faced off against Morgoth and were closely assciated to Nimrodel's household and the founding of Lothlorien, would you'd think have plenty to tell of them. If the author wished so.
And Tolkien does rather give the impression that such matings are rare and therefore special and especially tragic in their own right. Even the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, which is one of happiness for 90% of it ends on a forlorn Arwen wandeing alone and heartbroken, regretting her now fleeting life, in the empty woods of her youth in what was once Lothlorien, until she just lies down, dies, and lets the grass grow over her grave.
Yet here we have a potential example with no such tragedy element attached it seems. The line of Dol Amroth seems to have only had positive outcomes from the matching of species. Making it even more unique in Tolkiens tales of such matters. }}

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Post by halfwise on Wed May 27, 2020 5:55 pm

Well, if it was Nimrodel's maidens, one has to ask where they got off to later? They'd still be around unless something nasty happened to them.

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Post by halfwise on Wed May 27, 2020 6:00 pm

Tolkien Gateway has all the references (and it was Amroth that jumped into the sea, not Nimrodel. Silly me)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dol_Amroth


The first Prince of Dol Amroth was Galador, the son of Imrazôr. According to legend, Imrazôr had married the Elven-lady Mithrellas, a companion of Nimrodel.

The reference is to Unfinished Tales. Then cross referencing Methrellas, we find that after giving birth she ran away at night and was never seen again.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed May 27, 2020 6:06 pm

{{ Thats even odder for Tolkien. He just writes her in then writes her straight back out with no explanation other than ran away. Given she produced an important line of men, and that there surely must be more to say about why she ran away, and did she run to another elven haven, or to the Grey Havens, or just away?
Still seems odd to me that Tolkien would devote so much attention to such pairings in all other cases of it occuring, yet so little and in almost dismissive fashion of this one- the only one prior to Aragorn to produce a successful and seemingly happy line of men with elven blood. Thats quite a big deal.}}

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Post by halfwise on Wed May 27, 2020 6:09 pm

Not as good a story so you don't tell it.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed May 27, 2020 6:29 pm

{{ Again though thats authors choice to not give her a good story. Why her? Why this story not to tell or make good? Why write it in at all and leave it in as a reference in LotR's if you don't think its even a good enough, or important enough tale to tell? Especially from an author who has otherwise should such a keen interest in making tales of such pairings interesting and good. It still seems odd to me that this one is basically recorded as a footnote. }}

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Post by halfwise on Wed May 27, 2020 6:31 pm

Yeah it's a Queen Beruthial sort of thing. I'm sure any writings about it came after he wrote LotR so he was just filling in corners.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu May 28, 2020 2:18 pm


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Post by Lancebloke on Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:33 pm

I just watched that reunion and was coming to see if someone has posted it here.

I dont think of looking at this thread... not sure if worth posting in another thread too? Actually was a really enjoyable watch.
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Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:54 pm

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

whoop! whoop! fabulous!

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Post by halfwise on Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:06 pm

You knocking this thread, Lance? What's wrong with this thread? We're not cool enough for you here?

Lancebloke wrote:I just watched that reunion and was coming to see if someone has posted it here.

I dont think of looking at this thread... not sure if worth posting in another thread too? Actually was a really enjoyable watch.

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Post by Lancebloke on Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:28 pm

Halfy... there has been a distinct lack of action in this section of the forum (TV series apart) so I just don't think to look here much!

Great reunion though... seems like a lot of love between them all. And Billy's little song at the end....
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Post by azriel on Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:20 am

That video of the guys together was fun Smile so nostalgic, made it feel as tho the ending of filming LOTRs was only yesterday & not the ( how long ? ) 16/17 yrs ?? !!!

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Post by Elthir on Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:24 pm

I wrote this back in 2016, so I'm not sure I still agree with me . . . but anyway, the question was: Why did Tolkien include the dialogue between Legolas and Imrahil?

__________

Maybe to give Imrahil a singular nobility among those who arrived to aid Minas Tirith, and a fairness even bordering on Elvishness, whether or not Legolas was correct?

I agree it seems odd to think that Legolas might be wrong, but for example when Turin reached full manhood he was (The Children of Hurin):

"in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor."

Granted it says "at first meeting" here, but on the other hand we don't know what the eventual give away might be with Turin, who never claimed to be an Elf. When Tuor first enters Gondolin his eyes give away his kin, but earlier in the Narn, Turin is described as bright-eyed as well, and I note he is compared to the Noldor here, whose eyes (at least early in their Exile anyway) were so notable that the Sindar called them Lechind "Flame-eyed" (Quendi And Eldar, War of the Jools).

Also Morwen was dark-haired and tall (The Children of Hurin) "and for the light of her glance and the beauty of her face men called her Eledhwen, the elven-fair..."


Legolas appears to have just met Imrahil when he notes the legend ("at first meeting"), and even Imrahil stamps that this is the lore of his land, and I don't think (if I recall correctly), that Tolkien ever refers to this matter outside of the context of a legend, suggesting variant traditions concerning who the Elf maid was . . . if "improbably" Nimrodel herself.

Another thing is that after Mithrellas (of the Silvan race) bore a son and daughter, at some point she "slipped away by night and he saw her no more"

... seems a bit odd for a mother to do this, and we are given no reason for the disappearance. But this does, somewhat conveniently in a way, take early care of the living proof of Elvish blood in the line, noting too, that Mithrellas would not die as a mortal. In other words, this sounds to me a bit like a way to explain that the (Unfinished Tales): "... house and kin of the Lord of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind."

And whether Elves were involved or not, if it's a legend, we can't have obvious proof, so the Elf involved needs to "go away" for . . . some reason. So while I agree that it's hard to think Legolas could be wrong here, I'm not sure I should be certain he was right.

In any case, I think Tolkien was wise to keep this matter in legendary status, and not give it "too much" ink.

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Post by halfwise on Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:28 pm

So elves are given away by their eyes....not the ears?

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Post by Elthir on Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:32 pm

Ahh . . . a wasp nest to poke Wink

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Post by Lancebloke on Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:27 pm

An obstacle course of snow, oliphant trunks, mounting a galloping horse and negotiating stairs without feet touching them.... is that not how to tell them apart?
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:36 pm

{{ Laughing }}

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Post by Elthir on Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:06 am

Lancebloke wrote: ( . . . )  mounting a galloping horse

How soon a thread
can turn to horses!

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Post by halfwise on Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:19 am

And here I was gonna be poking around looking for ears while all the time overlooking the obvious.

Lancebloke wrote:An obstacle course of snow, oliphant trunks, mounting a galloping horse and negotiating stairs without feet touching them.... is that not how to tell them apart?

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Post by Lancebloke on Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:10 am

Elthir wrote:
Lancebloke wrote: ( . . . )  mounting a galloping horse

How soon a thread
can turn to horses!

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{{{Don't mention the colour... dont mention the colour...}}}
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Post by Elthir on Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:26 pm

And a thread that
turns to horses
might turn again
to stingrays.

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Post by Amarië on Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:37 pm

This is indeed a disturbing universe thread.

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Post by azriel on Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:13 pm


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