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Post by Elthir Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:07 pm

halfwise wrote:So if I read you right, you translate "did you see my ring?" to "did you recognize that I'm wearing a Ring of Power?"   Sounds reasonable, except for Sam's statement "I saw a star through your finger" seems to indicate that even when a ring was right before his eyes he didn't see a ring.

Yeah  . . . I'd put it this way: sometimes when a person asks a question to person A (Frodo) and immediately asks a shorter version to person B (Sam) the full meaning can still be implied . . .  but in any case Sam will arguably take the simpler path and say what he (thinks he) saw, and in part because he knows he didn't understand . . .

. . . but if what he saw was like "as if the Elven star had come down to rest upon her hand" then I think one would naturally focus on the light, which may even have even blurred the visual perception of a ring.

Some Holes In My Theory

Galadriel would arguably only need to "ask" Frodo (in quotes as they both knew the answer) if he recognized the Ring, and she does say that Frodo has seen that which is "hidden", and Sam does say he "wondered what you were talking about", as if he was paying enough attention but was confused because he did not see the Ring Galadriel had admitted to wearing.

Hmm . . . I'm staring to lean away from my own approach!

But to date, in my head I've sorta "explained" these away by wondering if JRRT wanted to suggest two interpretations at once, and so leave it possible that the Three were visible -- but that could also (easily) be me wanting to have a fairly "unique" theory here . . .

. . . and annoy folks with it Very Happy  

Maybe I should not be so influenced by a letter versus (my opinion of) canon, but if what JRRT says (and implies about Sauron's influence) is true in the letter, it still doesn't sit quite right with me that invisibility of any measure should be connected with the three.

Also, I'm of the mind that if you want to hide something without making it invisible, then make it something that looks like an ordinary object, like a kind of jewelry. Then the "sight" needed to know, especially for certain, if an Elf is wearing one of the Three, is sight as in perception.

And I don't see a great need for Celebrimbor to have included any hiding power -- again, at the time of their making anyway, and in the Third Age, it's not like Lothlorien and Imladris weren't already well "hidden" themselves.

Petty wrote: "Now the Rings of Power by their very nature exist in both the seen and unseen at the same time."

I never thought of the rings in this way. The notion is new to me, so now (drat) I might need to actually think!


Last edited by Elthir on Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by halfwise Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:30 pm

I'd say the elven rings are hidden, but NOT by an intrinsic power of the rings, but by their bearers.  Therefore the rings do not confer invisibility of any sort in accordance with Tolkien's letter, but can still be invisible to Sam.

Celebrimbor had no reason to imbue the rings with the power of invisibility, but their bearers did after Sauron forged the One.


Last edited by halfwise on Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:37 pm

{{ Well in the making of the Rings it seems that the makers always put something of themselves into their creations, this is something Tolkien implies often in elven history and the crafting of 'magical' items.
Now it's clearly not something physical they put into their works it so it must therefore be something more 'spirtual' in meaning, something that is part of the unseen.
And as the Ring remains in existence when in the other world, such as Frodo at Weathertop, or when he has almost faded at the Ford, it obviously can exist there and still have function, if not more, in that world.
So it seems to me therefore that the rings by the very way they are crafted, with elven magic as Sam might say, must be in both worlds. To a degree that is why they are magic.
So Sam did not grasp what was going on, but caught only a part, a glimpse of it. In reveliang the ring on her finger Galadriel gave a glimpse into the unseen world, but Sam could not fit it in his perception and world view save to see it as a star shining upon her finger. A hint of something beautiful, powerful and wonderful, magical even, but distant and untouchable and unknowable, for Sam.
Frodo however did see it and understand because he could comprehend it in its totality.

There is no indication in Sams words for instance that he witnessed the "great light that illumed her alone and left all else dark" that came from the ring she wore, or that so transformed her in Frodo's eyes into "seeming tall beyond measurement, and beautiful and enduring, terrible and worshipful".
All Sam has to say to this display is "I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your fingers," and thats it.

The implication to me is that a lot of what we are seeing described is what Frodo and Galadriel are seeing and perceiving, their converation is part taking place in the unseen because they are both ring-bearers, and so Sam misses all of that. No bright light, no ring, no transformation of Galadriel into something terrible and worshipful for him. Just them talking and a star shining through her fingers.}}

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Post by halfwise Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:44 pm

Beautifully put and convincing. Not completely sufficient to knock out the view that the bearers are hiding their rings by intention, for the hiding is a common theme; and if not hiding them from common eyes then in what other way could they be "hidden"? Simply by not talking about them? Insufficient when the spies of the enemy are about.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:49 pm

{{ I think both things are compatible  Halfy, because by their nature the rings belong in both worlds then an owner with enough inherent personal power and knowledge, like Galadriel, or Gandalf, or Elrond, could then by force of will choose for their rings to have or not have a physical presence in this world, not by making them invisible as such just only perceivable in the unseen, having them visible therefore only to others who can see both states of being. But as they are also physical, made objects they must and can also have a physical mainfestation if wished. But the owner would need to have mastery of their ring I reckon to do this, otherwise the ring would always have a physical form visible to all- like the One Ring does as Frodo never has or claims mastery over it till the very end. }}

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Post by Elthir Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:32 pm

Hey . . . another Tolkien based discussion!

But now I need to think, and I am already weary from a thread about Glorfindel's date of return (at another forum), plus another about who fought in the Wrathy War . . .

. . . and I'm not getting younger. I need some   Sleep at the moment, but some ideas here to consider anyway.

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Post by chris63 Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:47 am


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Post by Elthir Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:37 pm

Okay . . .  I've given it more thought and I'm not convinced about the Three.

Stubborn I know.

But what did you expect from someone who's gone to the trouble of sifting through the "Sam/Nenya text" to see if an interpretation of Nenya being visible might work?

And delving further into what the power -- for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm and live "at once in both worlds" -- might mean as far as making, could be tricky. Invisibility, "invulnerability" (some argue that the Nine are invulnerable excepting only barrow blades), winged dragons who do the bidding of Dark Lords (perhaps "noticeably" absent until the War of Wrath), are some examples that I think need to be treated "with care" . . . so to speak.

Or something.

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Post by halfwise Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:45 pm

Meanwhile going back to Chris's video, I think Mithril is an aluminum alloy. 7075 aircraft quality?

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Post by chris63 Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:48 pm

It could be alien. 🤔

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Post by chris63 Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:51 pm


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Post by chris63 Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:52 pm


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Post by Elthir Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:06 pm

Video: The Maiar that Glorfindel dwells with: "come to regard him as an equal to themselves"

"Almost" an equal, says the text.

This is how it starts. The next video will have him equal to Manwe!

Glorfindel would not want his already amazing spiritual power to be overstated.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:44 am


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Post by halfwise Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:35 pm


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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:21 pm

{{ Of all the games made based on LotR's over the years this has to be one of the oddest- Lord of the Rings: Gollum.
And if you are going to boast about how faithful youve been to the book best not to accompany it with a bunch of unfaithful images! (Gandalfs hat was never that wide, floppy brimmed, if it was his eye brows couldnt stick out beyond the brim. Nod }}


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Post by halfwise Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:28 pm

the hell is going on with Thranduil's hair?

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Post by Elthir Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:26 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:(Gandalfs hat was never that wide, floppy brimmed, if it was his eye brows couldnt stick out beyond the brim.)

You have canon on your side about the eyebrows, no doubt; but I'll note my opinion that Tolkien eliminated this
detail in the 1960 Hobbit.

Unfortunately he forgot to eliminate the same description in The Lord of the Rings revised edition, if indeed, as it seems, he wanted to get rid of it. My guess is that he probably thought the detail only appeared in The Hobbit . . .

. . . that said, in author published text, Gandalf had a brim on his hat, so how to imagine this "pairing" of brim to brows?

Wink

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Post by halfwise Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:18 pm

I don't remember a description of eyebrows in LotR. Maybe something about Pippen not being cowed by them.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:24 pm

{{ How can you not have noticed Gandalfs eyebrows? Ive been wanting to grow a pair like them since I first read the Hobbit as a kid, just so I can bristle them at people like Gandalf, they are ther ultimate aid to crabbit expression and Gandalf uses his like a crabbit master. Twisted Evil }}

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Post by halfwise Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:53 pm

This is the picture that inspired Gandalf.  The hat is described as "shady" in the Hobbit, so I don't see it being a brimless hat.

Swiss Mountain Spirit Postcard

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Post by Elthir Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:38 pm

Bushy eyebrows that stuck out beyond the brim of his hat -- first chapter of Fellowship.

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Post by chris63 Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:18 am

https://youtu.be/DYAhEDwmQFM
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Post by halfwise Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:48 am

Helping you out.


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