Ringdrotten

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 2:31 pm

no, this is not a thread dedicated to our dear ringo, but a thread because i am asking:

is the nynorsk version "ringdrotten" better than the bokmål one? and is it good nynorsk ?

by halfwise Thu May 22, 2014 2:36 pm

but since the rest of us have no clue what you are talking about, we may as well make this into a thread about Ringo.

He's been posting more frequently in the last month or so. Change in deployment? Dumped by girlfriend? Testing out secret military mind control embedded in messages?

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 2:38 pm

haha, perhaps.... scratch

by Ringdrotten Thu May 22, 2014 3:01 pm

halfwise wrote:but since the rest of us have no clue what you are talking about, we may as well make this into a thread about Ringo.

He's been posting more frequently in the last month or so. Change in deployment? Dumped by girlfriend? Testing out secret military mind control embedded in messages?

As to Norc's question - yes, it is better than the bokmål translation, and yes, it's written in excellent nynorsk (and various forms of nynorsk/landsmål). In my opinion Ringdrotten added the final touch to LotR, and by that I mean differences in speech. Elves, men (from different places), dwarves, hobbits - they all talk differently, and the many forms of nynorsk and landsmål are the perfect tool to bring these variations to life. Additionally I believe nynorsk will always be the best choice of language for epics like LotR. The Bible is better in nynorsk, Snorre is better in nynorsk and LotR is better in nynorsk Smile

If you decide to read it, Norc, I strongly recommend you read the author's comments on translating LotR in the beginning. It's very interesting, and it'll give you a good understanding of why he chose a certain dialect or variety of nynorsk/landsmål for a certain people, and how he's worked on the translation (it's really quite impressive). I alternate between reading LotR in English and reading Rindrotten as it's a great way of keeping the story fresh, and if you're a language geek like I am you'll quickly discover that Myhren's (the translator's) language is extremely rich, fluent and in no way inferior to Tolkien's. I believe Amarië is of the same opinion, so I say go for it Smile

by halfwise Thu May 22, 2014 3:03 pm

Almost makes me want to learn nynorsk.

Then I realize it's like, a foreign language.

by Ringdrotten Thu May 22, 2014 3:24 pm

Yeah, it's a shame so few can understand Norwegian. And even if you could, to be able to fully appreciate Ringdrotten (the translation Wink

) you have to be at a pretty decent level in the Norwegian language, even as a native speaker. Many of the words used in the translation have roots in Old Norse, and there's generally a lot of words that aren't in use anymore, so many readers find it a little heavy and slow-going. Actually, I believe many Norwegians will find reading LotR in English easier than reading Ringdrotten, because so many have very little training in reading Nynorsk, and this is no children's book in terms of language complexity. Their loss, though - I always find myself wishing other people (for example my fellow forumshirelings) were competent in Nynorsk, because it really is a masterpiece as far as translations go.

by Pettytyrant101 Thu May 22, 2014 3:49 pm

Damn my one language upbringing! Mad

by Eldorion Thu May 22, 2014 5:13 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:Yeah, it's a shame so few can understand Norwegian. And even if you could, to be able to fully appreciate Ringdrotten (the translation ) you have to be at a pretty decent level in the Norwegian language, even as a native speaker. Many of the words used in the translation have roots in Old Norse, and there's generally a lot of words that aren't in use anymore, so many readers find it a little heavy and slow-going.

Funnily enough, I think the same thing is true of LOTR in English for native English-speakers, at least to some extent. Laughing

by Ringdrotten Thu May 22, 2014 5:28 pm

I believe you Very Happy

LotR is not the first book you'd want to read in English, and without a dictionary very few will ever be able to fully appreciate Tolkien's language. Reading LotR in English on my Kindle was a whole other experience, because it is so easy to look up words in the Oxford dictionary. When I read it in "book format" I understood everything, but I often found myself wishing I had a dictionary available so I could look up words I wasn't certain of or didn't understand at all. The same thing goes for Ringdrotten, but to a much lesser extent since I've been reading nynorsk since I was 5 or 6. Most Norwegians don't begin taking Nynorsk classes until they're 14-15, and by then most are quite competent in English. That's why I'm thinking many will probably find the English original easier than the Nynorsk translation, simply because they're more used to reading English.

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 5:32 pm

i am actually very competent in nynorsk than you very much Wink

but i tried reading the hobbit, and that was .... interesting..

could you i dunno... find an example??? u see i am thinking of buying it as a present.. perhaps

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 5:34 pm

i read lotr without a dictionary.

by Ringdrotten Thu May 22, 2014 5:44 pm

Norc wrote:i am actually very competent in nynorsk than you very much

I have no doubt about that, but I'm afraid that's not the case for a lot of others our age Smile

I don't know what to use as an example, the whole thing just has to be read and experienced. I might try to find a suitable poem, that could work. I'll see if I can find my copy and write something down Smile

PS: I also read LotR without a dictionary the first times, but when I read it on the Kindle I could simply press my finger on a fancy word and I'd get all the definitions of that word. You never bother with it when you read books in paper, but it's a great way to get all the nuances, as an author's choice of words is seldom random. I find it especially useful when I read the ASOIAF series, as Martin often uses words with very spesific meanings.

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 5:49 pm

yeah, true Smile

i found this article though, and that was helpful
http://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/litteratur/article1572125.ece#.U34pEfl_srU

by halfwise Thu May 22, 2014 5:53 pm

Is a dictionary actually more useful for reading Martin than Tolkien? Not sure I would have expected that.

But going back earlier, you study english before Nynorsk?! Does this mean you learn to read in a foreign language? That's mind bending to me.

What's the exact relationship between Nynorsk and the languages spoken at home?

by Ringdrotten Thu May 22, 2014 5:58 pm

It's very descriptive of what Ringdrotten is. There's a mention or two about the Elves in that article, and in my opinion they're the best thing about this translation - the language he's chosen for them makes them seem ancient (which, of course, was exactly what he was aiming to accomplish). It's just a fantastic book altogether, I can't recommend it highly enough Smile

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 6:00 pm

halfwise wrote:Is a dictionary actually more useful for reading Martin than Tolkien? Not sure I would have expected that.

But going back earlier, you study english before Nynorsk?! Does this mean you learn to read in a foreign language? That's mind bending to me.

What's the exact relationship between Nynorsk and the languages spoken at home?

nynorsk is pretty similar.... more similar sometimes than bokmål.

eg heite Nora, eg vert kalla Norc. Eg har eit ovalt anlete. (nynorsk)
æ hete Nora, æ blir kalt for Norc. Æ har et ovalt ansikt(spoken)
jeg heter Nora, jeg kalles Norc. Jeg har et ovalt ansikt (bokmål)
(i [verb that doesn't exsist in english] Nora, i am called norc. i have an oval face.)

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 6:01 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:It's very descriptive of what Ringdrotten is. There's a mention or two about the Elves in that article, and in my opinion they're the best thing about this translation - the language he's chosen for them makes them seem ancient (which, of course, was exactly what he was aiming to accomplish). It's just a fantastic book altogether, I can't recommend it highly enough

nice, i might buy it then Very Happy

by halfwise Thu May 22, 2014 6:11 pm

"(i [verb that doesn't exsist in english] Nora, i am called norc. i have an oval face.)"

How many possibilities can there be? Shocked

I am Nora.
I was christianed Nora.
I would love to play tiddlywinks with Nora.

But seriously, if only one word, there's not much.

Still haven't answered my question - do you learn to read English before any Norwegian language?

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 6:15 pm

word for "being named", it's "å hete" or in german "zu heisse" (there's a fancy double-s there but my keyboard doesn't have it).

by Ringdrotten Thu May 22, 2014 6:16 pm

halfwise wrote:Is a dictionary actually more useful for reading Martin than Tolkien? Not sure I would have expected that.

But going back earlier, you study english before Nynorsk?! Does this mean you learn to read in a foreign language? That's mind bending to me.

What's the exact relationship between Nynorsk and the languages spoken at home?

There are two written languages in Norway - Nynorsk and Bokmål. Most people learn Bokmål from 1st grade, then they start learning Nynorsk in 9th. For me it was the other way around - I learned Nynorsk from 1st grade, then began learning Bokmål in 9th grade. The difference is that I already knew how to write correct Bokmål because most newspapers, subtitles, books and internet pages are in Bokmål. If you wait with learning Nynorsk until you're 14, chances are you'll have next to no experience with it except from watching NRK (Fjordian equivalent-ish to BBC), as they run some shows with subtitles in Nynorsk.

And yes, I find myself using the dictionary function more often when I read George R. R. Martin. His books are full of words you don't come across very often, like names for different parts of a castle, a ship (forecastle? Didn't even know what that was in Fjordian), titles, weird expressions (must needs? Sounded all wrong to me when I first read it). Tolkien's language is no less rich, but for some reason I don't look up as many words when I read LotR. Perhaps he just used words I can understand, as opposed to Martin's geldings and seneschals Laughing

by Norc Thu May 22, 2014 6:16 pm

halfwise wrote:

Still haven't answered my question - do you learn to read English before any Norwegian language?

err.. no. we start with the spoken language

by Ringdrotten Thu May 22, 2014 6:24 pm

To make it more clear: You learn both English and either Bokmål or Nynorsk from 1st grade (age 6). You don't learn English at the same pace, though, there's a lot of "red apple" and "blue car" and "I have a brother and a sister and I live in a red house" the first year Smile

by halfwise Thu May 22, 2014 6:56 pm

Making sense now.

by **Amarië** Thu May 22, 2014 8:12 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:(...)

As to Norc's question - yes, it is better than the bokmål translation, and yes, it's written in excellent nynorsk (and various forms of nynorsk/landsmål). In my opinion Ringdrotten added the final touch to LotR, and by that I mean differences in speech. Elves, men (from different places), dwarves, hobbits - they all talk differently, and the many forms of nynorsk and landsmål are the perfect tool to bring these variations to life. Additionally I believe nynorsk will always be the best choice of language for epics like LotR. The Bible is better in nynorsk, Snorre is better in nynorsk and LotR is better in nynorsk :)If you decide to read it, Norc, I strongly recommend you read the author's comments on translating LotR in the beginning. It's very interesting, and it'll give you a good understanding of why he chose a certain dialect or variety of nynorsk/landsmål for a certain people, and how he's worked on the translation (it's really quite impressive). I alternate between reading LotR in English and reading Rindrotten as it's a great way of keeping the story fresh, and if you're a language geek like I am you'll quickly discover that Myhren's (the translator's) language is extremely rich, fluent and in no way inferior to Tolkien's. I believe Amarië is of the same opinion, so I say go for it

AMEN!!!

by halfwise Thu May 22, 2014 8:29 pm

How the hell? Scrolling?!

Sheesh.

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