Re: Middle-earth and the modern era

by Kenelm Sun May 04, 2014 12:40 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ok I did some measuring of distances and then laid the places out according to their relative distances from the Shire.
And the results were somewhat surprising.

Sorry for the tricky to read map, the mountains are the main chains, added the Great River and Mirkwood over the top.

Here, as close as I can get it, is where everywhere is located-

Shire= Birmingham, England

Bree= Norwich, East coast of England

Rivendell= Heide, N Germany

Moria= Kronach, E Germany

Lorien= Domazlice, W Czech Republic

Fangorn= W Austria

Mirkwood= Central Poland,N SLovakia, W Lithunia, Baltic Sea as far north as S Estonia.

Lonely Mountain= Dobele, Latvia

Dol Guldur= Valassko Mezirici, E Czech Republic

Rauros= Belgrade, Slayonski Brod, Crotia

Minas Tirith = Pogradec, E Albania

If a map could be worked up on this basis, to the same quality as Prof. Bird's, I'd be very happy to use it on the website.

by Norc Sun May 04, 2014 12:42 am

fangorn is the size of switzerland?

by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 04, 2014 12:46 am

A little smaller maybe than it looks here, its just a rough guide, but yeah its pretty big, but Mirkwoods huge, it stretches in length from a line from the the southern edge of Estonia, down right through Poland and out the other side, and covers half of Slovakia.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 04, 2014 1:30 am

Just did a check Norc and Fangorn is about 100-120 miles wide at its widest point and about the same north to south.

Mirkwood is about 400 miles longways, and at its widest its about 200 miles, and its narrowest (where the Bight is) its only 60 miles wide.

by Eldorion Sun May 04, 2014 1:32 am

That's a really well-done map, Petty. I've seen some other Middle-earth/Europe overlay maps before, many of which are unreadable due to all the text and colors blending together (example: 1, 2, 3), so I really appreciate you going in with the digital paintbrush like that. Very Happy

There are some differences in those maps because most people go with the Shire = Oxford statement from Tolkien.

by Tinuviel Sun May 04, 2014 2:13 am

Welcome Kenelm! I already like you! You've got us going on a discussion already! I hope you stick around!!!!

by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 04, 2014 3:00 am

Yes, thanks for sparking this Kenelm Nod

A possibly slightly better looking version-

Middle-earth and the modern era - Page 2 Europe4cf_zps8a0928b7

by David H Sun May 04, 2014 4:01 am

Norc wrote:fangorn is the size of switzerland?

Indeed. Why not? Switzerland is only a little over 100 Km across at it's narrowest. A good distance runner could run across it in a day if the roads were good. Fangorn is bigger than that, I think....

by Kenelm Sun May 04, 2014 9:16 am

Tinuviel wrote:Welcome Kenelm! I already like you! You've got us going on a discussion already! I hope you stick around!!!!

Thank you! A good, in-depth discussion is exactly what I was hoping for.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 04, 2014 11:29 am

Although dont worry if we end up talking about goldfish in underwear or something, its just our way. drunken

by Mrs Figg Sun May 04, 2014 1:17 pm

so its Minas Anor then? scratch

still cant figure it out.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 04, 2014 1:29 pm

If its Dol Amroth your looking for Figg then take a line directly south from Edoras, and it would roughly be there, just off the bottom of that map in the sea off the coast of Italy.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 04, 2014 1:44 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:If its Dol Amroth your looking for Figg then take a line directly south from Edoras, and it would roughly be there, just off the bottom of that map in the sea off the coast of Italy.

wheres Ithilien on that map?

by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 04, 2014 1:53 pm

Southern Ithilien would be off that map, just south of the tip of Greece, and a little off its west coast.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 04, 2014 2:09 pm

Its a good map but I would like to have a much more detailed overlay so you can really get a good idea where everything is in detail, maybe it could be done in 2 colours one for ME and one for our world, I wonder if transparencies could work.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun May 04, 2014 2:14 pm

Problem is I found if I used a map of Europe that was detailed with lots of place names, and I put ME over it, also with lots of place names, it runs into the confusing mess problem Eldo mentioned with other such attempts.
And in order to get a high enough resolution to read all the place names on a detailed map covering that area you end up with a bloody huge picture.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 04, 2014 2:15 pm

I wonder if theres a map of Europe with just big towns and cities?

by Kenelm Sun May 04, 2014 2:35 pm

I've changed the map now, having overlaid the standard map of Middle-earth onto a sepia toned physical map of Europe.

http://3rings.webs.com/geography

by Kenelm Sun May 04, 2014 3:18 pm

Here it is anyway. I've tried to preserve all the detail of the Tolkien map without it being overwhelmed by the European map. I also have a much larger version, measuring 3194 pixels along the top.

Middle-earth and the modern era - Page 2 Middle-earth1000jpg

Middle-earth and the modern era - Page 2 Middle-earth1000jpg

by Eldorion Sun May 04, 2014 4:20 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:Its a good map but I would like to have a much more detailed overlay so you can really get a good idea where everything is in detail, maybe it could be done in 2 colours one for ME and one for our world, I wonder if transparencies could work.

In addition to kenelm's new map, I linked to a couple of other overlay maps I've found in this post (the numbers are the links). Most of them don't show very much detail in Europe though, in an attempt at increasing readability.

by malickfan Sun May 04, 2014 4:36 pm

Hi Kenelm, welcome to Forumshire Wave

Starting a lore discussion already, impressive...

I came across this map, so the ones posted earlier in the thread do seem to be accurate

Middle-earth and the modern era - Page 2 Google-middle-earth-corrected-big

Middle-earth and the modern era - Page 2 Google-middle-earth-corrected-big

I seem to be somewhere Northwest of Tharbad

by Kenelm Sun May 04, 2014 4:55 pm

malickfan wrote:Hi Kenelm, welcome to Forumshire

Starting a lore discussion already, impressive...

I came across this map, so the ones posted earlier in the thread do seem to be accurate

I seem to be somewhere Northwest of Tharbad

Thanks. I do quite like that one, and have seen it before, but unfortunately it places Hobbiton somewhere by London, which affects the accuracy of the rest by about 120 miles.

by Eldorion Sun May 04, 2014 5:23 pm

I dunno if I'd use the word accuracy, since one of Tolkien's very few comments on the Middle-earth/Europe issue was to say that Hobbiton (and Rivendell) is at the latitude of Oxford. Granted, there is plenty of room for further speculation and research, but there's nothing conclusive. And its the Shire = Birmingham school of thought that has less textual basis.

by Kenelm Sun May 04, 2014 5:34 pm

Eldorion wrote:I dunno if I'd use the word accuracy, since one of Tolkien's very few comments on the Middle-earth/Europe issue was to say that Hobbiton (and Rivendell) is at the latitude of Oxford. Granted, there is plenty of room for further speculation and research, but there's nothing conclusive. And its the Shire = Birmingham school of thought that has less textual basis.

He said approximately the latitude of Oxford, which Birmingham is, since there's not much in it. The textual basis for using Sarehole is the equation of Sandyman's Mill with Sarehole Mill. There's a lot more evidence besides, as described on my website.

by Eldorion Sun May 04, 2014 5:47 pm

I've read that part of your website, but with all due respect, I can't say I agree with it. The claim about the location of Hobbiton appears to be based on one of two assumptions. Either (a) out of universe, Tolkien consciously based the geography of the Shire on his childhood home and intended the two to be equivalent, which to the best of my knowledge is never stated in the letters or any of his posthumously published writing; or (b) in-universe, the geography of modern Sarehole is supposed to have been in continuous existence since the time of LOTR 6000 years ago, which again is not suggested by Tolkien's writing and also would seem to be at odds with our knowledge of the history of the area.