Alternative adaptations of LoTR and TH

I did watch it as a little kid. And I find it to be very charming today, if that's nostalgia then I can't really defend myself. I think the music is great, and it really captured the spirit of the book.

Well I don't think nostalgia really needs defending (though I may just be saying that as insurance for the next time Petty criticizes Harry Potter ).  I don't remember many of the songs from The Hobbit, although I think I enjoyed "Fifteen Birds in Five Fir Trees".  The ones that are really burnt into my memory are "Frodo of the Nine Fingers" and "Where There's a Whip There's a Way" from Return of the King since my brother and I both thought they were hilariously bad and/or unfitting.

I won't defend the Rankin/Bass ROTK. It's like the reverse of what Jackson has done. Instead of Hobbit story with LOTR tone, it's LOTR story with Hobbit tone.

He overdoes the vibrato, but it's a great song.

Eldorion wrote:Well I don't think nostalgia really needs defending (though I may just be saying that as insurance for the next time Petty criticizes Harry Potter ).

But the thing with this is, when I first saw AUJ I really liked it because it had that nostalgia feel. It really blinded me to its shortcomings, so I must be ignoring or unable to see what everyone else dislikes about the Rankin/Bass Hobbit.

I didn't mind that song at all. Listening to some of the songs in the related videos they're actually fairly catchy. Now I'm afraid some of them will still be stuck in my head tomorrow.

bungobaggins wrote:I won't defend the Rankin/Bass ROTK. It's like the reverse of what Jackson has done. Instead of Hobbit story with LOTR tone, it's LOTR story with Hobbit tone.

Missing huge chunks of the story, and what's there is hideously condensed too. The endless narration about Aragorn gets paid off with ... a two second shot of some dude we've never seen before sitting on a horse. And Pippin's line "I'll go get Gandalf" is one of the worst line deliveries I've ever heard.

bungobaggins wrote:But the thing with this is, when I first saw AUJ I really liked it because it had that nostalgia feel. It really blinded me to its shortcomings, so I must be ignoring or unable to see what everyone else dislikes about the Rankin/Bass Hobbit.

You've mentioned this before and it sort of seems like you feel guilty about having liked An Unexpected Journey the first time you saw it. Speaking in my official capacity as someone who disliked the film from the word go, I hope you know that we don't think any less of you for that.

I will admit that I'd be a little surprised if you didn't see any of the flaws in the R/B Hobbit, but I think it's totally possible to see/acknowledge flaws without thinking that they ruin the film, or even to disagree about whether they should count as flaws at all.

Eldorion wrote:
Missing huge chunks of the story, and what's there is hideously condensed too.  The endless narration about Aragorn gets paid off with ... a two second shot of some dude we've never seen before sitting on a horse.  And Pippin's line "I'll go get Gandalf" is one of the worst line deliveries I've ever heard.

Oh, man, I don't remember much about it. I'm going to have to rewatch this.

It's been years and years since I've seen the film, so don't quote me on any specifics, but it's truly atrocious.

Eldorion wrote:You've mentioned this before and it sort of seems like you feel guilty about having liked An Unexpected Journey the first time you saw it.  Speaking in my official capacity as someone who disliked the film from the word go, I hope you know that we don't think any less of you for that.

I will admit that I'd be a little surprised if you didn't see any of the flaws in the R/B Hobbit, but I think it's totally possible to see/acknowledge flaws without thinking that they ruin the film, or even to disagree about whether they should count as flaws at all.

I think I can get what some people say regarding the elves design and how it's inconsistent (Elrond looks like how we would expect an elf to look, the wood elves do not). The fight scenes are very cheesy, they don't show much, and whenever someone slashes at an enemy with their sword they do that weird animation thing. I can see how that might be a criticism, and all I'd be able to say in its defense is that this is for little kids and they shouldn't show graphic violence. What are other common criticisms leveled against it? It's cheesy? Okay, 1970s children's cartoon, what can you expect?   

{{{The fact that I did like AUJ does weigh on me a bit. I remember the big denial phase I went through.   }}}

bungobaggins wrote:What are other common criticisms leveled against it? It's cheesy? Okay, 1970s children's cartoon, what can you expect?   

I think that's what a lot of the criticisms boil down to.  Rankin and Bass took a timeless classic of children's literature and turned into a corny '70s TV special.  Sometimes they were able to get the comedy to work, but the dramatic and emotional moments are left hollow by the alternate twee-ness and absurdity of the film. There's no stakes or gravitas when there should be, and the more imaginative fantasy elements feel like something dreamed up by a coke-fueled '70s animator. If I'm mentioning the '70s too much, it's because the whole thing feels very dated to me, and did even when I was younger.

Hmmm, well I can see your point. The attack on Lake-town never felt tense, and some of the animation in there is goofy, so I get what you're saying.

As for the ROTK cartoon, talk about pacing issues! First 8 minutes to set up the whole story (and giving away the end in the process), 13 minutes for the "Samwise the strong" sequence. That's 21 minutes in and nothing has happened. Sam faces the watchers at Cirith Ungol, but there's no explanation for how/where he got the phial.

I'll give them credit for not taking lines of dialogue out of context. ("Didst thou think that the eyes of the white tower were blind?")

You were right about "I'll go get Gandalf." Nice read, kid. I don't feel like watching the rest, this is really bad.

This aired on TV, so did they seriously expect people who weren't familiar with the story to tune in to, and understand a story that was ~5/6ths over?

bungobaggins wrote:He overdoes the vibrato, but it's a great song.

Both great songs, but The Road Goes Ever On and On is placed firmly in the modern era due to dependence on accompaniment. The melody has long breaks where the instruments play off the melody, which can't stand on it's own. And a harpsichord intro to Chip the Plates? That was just bizarre.

They sure stick in the head, though.

Howard Shore used a harpsichord in the DOS soundtrack.

Nothing wrong with the use of a harpsichord in middle earth, but as an intro to Dwarves singing about smashing plates? It just seems like the wrong instrument.

dont worry Bungo. I too quite liked AUJ when I first saw it, well, parts of it, but even then it left me bemused and feeling cheated. I also couldnt watch it twice because the second time it bored my pants off. But AUJ at least had some semblance of Middle Earth, specially in Hobbiton. I also liked the Eagles, and the two seconds of Bilbo alone in Rivendell. oh and Elrond is Always nice.

The 1st Hobbit vid reminded me of John Denver in style ?  I think the only thing I can praise The Hobbit for is, The Dwarves Misty Mountain song is a lot better  

bungobaggins wrote:Hmmm, well I can see your point. The attack on Lake-town never felt tense, and some of the animation in there is goofy, so I get what you're saying.

I think this is where the nostalgia factor comes into play.  I think kids are capable of distinguishing between good and bad stories, but the cheesiness isn't going to be as much of a turn-off and lower stakes will seem more impressive when you're young, I think.  Then, if the film made a positive impression, subsequent viewings will bring back those same feelings.  I know from experience that it can be hard to recognize flaws in a movie you've seen a number of times since early childhood.

I think the situation with AUJ is a little different.  I don't want to speak for anyone, but obviously  no one liked AUJ because they had fond memories of it when the film first came out.  I think a lot of people just wanted to be "back in Middle-earth", though, and were willing to overlook most everything else.  The level of hype that existed in the fandom (if not in society as a whole) made it easier to get swept along too, of course.  

This aired on TV, so did they seriously expect people who weren't familiar with the story to tune in to, and understand a story that was ~5/6ths over?

I have no idea.  It's basically a direct sequel to the animated Hobbit, with mere coincidence that it begins shortly after Bakshi's LOTR stopped.  The whole film shows such utter disregard for the rules of storytelling and drama, though.  It's really something of a mystery to me.  My best guess is that, as you mentioned earlier, they were trying to shoehorn a complex high fantasy story into the episodic fairy tale model of The Hobbit, and ended up making a ton of drastic changes and additions to try to get the tone similar to their previous film.  So, like you said, basically the inverse of the PJ Hobbit movies. {{{Except way worse.}}}

I must admit I did want to go back to Middle Earth a lot. What I went to was like a Las Vagas plastic version, it looks like ME and its got Hobbits, but it smells wrong and it feels wrong and its a scary soulless place with a McGandalfburger on every corner and smiling actors pretending to be Elves.

Well at least I didnt have that experience- I was dragged back yelling and complaining because I knew what was coming.

I would be a bit weird watching TH with you. A cinematic experience never to be forgotten. I bet your crabbit goes infrasound.

I saw AUJ with my mate Nagual, he said never again! Still not sure if that was my crabit in the cinema or just the awfulness of the film, or both.

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Ugh...that cover art....

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I saw AUJ with my mate Nagual, he said never again! Still not sure if that was my crabit in the cinema or just the awfulness of the film, or both.

poor Nagual he has my sympathy.   it must be irritating to have someone chewing the upholstery while you are trying to chillax in front of a cinematic masterpiece.