Should America/NATO support Syrian resistance the way it did in Libya?

In Italy too, men kiss each other on the cheeks (not on the lips) and walk arm in arm in a sign of respect and friendship, I think its nice.

Mrs Figg wrote:

holding hands is also a sign of respect

Not judging by bristlies face. That is clearly a 'yep... im your bitch' look!!

 

Oh my word. Some numskull on torn just compared the situation with Syria to the White Council/Dol Guldur subplot in AUJ. I really need to rant about this here, because anything I write there will just get deleted or edited.

He says, "G8 Summit = White Council. Syria = Dol Guldur. Saruman = Putin. Chemical Weapons = Witchking of Angmar's Blade. Obama = Gandalf. British Prime Minister = Elrond."

How can anyone have the audacity to simplify such a complex real life situation. A lot of people have died, and a lot more may die too before it's over, and you have the gall to compare it to a subplot in a fantasy adventure film? You have got to be kidding me. And he even gives preference to one side of the argument by equating the desired actions of Obama with one of the film's protagonists.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Life is not always a series of black and white situations where the correct answer is an absolute truth. Simplifying a situation like this, I think, shows very little understanding of the situation in the first place. He couldn't even name the British Prime Minister. I live in the middle of bum-fuck fly-over-land USA and I know David Cameron is the bloody PM.

As I was writing this the mods took down the post. I can provide photographic proof if you don't believe me though.

URRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! I am just feeling so   right now.

     

Sorry everyone.

No need to apologize Bungo. Actually thanks for sharing! I got a couple good chuckles out of it.  
Obama = Gandalf!

Thanks David. I'm not gonna pretend I know everything about what's going on in Syria, but I have not felt so offended by such gross insensitivity and blatant ignorance in such a long time. Part of his "genius" analogy doesn't even work. Elrond seemed mostly ambivalent about the entire situation, whereas David Cameron has called for action to be taken against Assad.

Considering how much Tolkien objected to having his epic reduced to an allegory of WWII, it seems ridiculous to try to stretch it even further and try to force the story to fit Syria.

Besides, for everybody that sees Omama as Gandalf,


...there's somebody who sees him as a Balrog. 


That's one of the perks of being President: you get to play all the roles!

I'm kind of glad I didn't see the original post. I totally understand the need to vent, bungo, so feel free to let loose on here.

Oh dear- the Prof would have hated that!
Although given one of the things Elrond is famous for is healing its a bit ironic to compare him to a UK PM hell bent on dismantling the NHS in England!

David H wrote:Considering how much Tolkien objected to having his epic reduced to an allegory of WWII, it seems ridiculous to try to stretch it even further and try to force the story to fit Syria.

Besides, for everybody that sees Omama as Gandalf,


...there's somebody who sees him as a Balrog. 


That's one of the perks of being President: you get to play all the roles!

Yeah, I agree with Obama on some stuff, and I disagree with him on some stuff (taking military action in Syria is one of them). But I would never go as far as to compare him with Gandalf or the Balrog. That's just silly. People are weird.

Looks like Putin is better at chess than Kerry.
In London earlier today Kerry made what they now claim was a 'rhetorical' almost throwaway remark in answer to the question 'what could Syria do to avoid strikes?' by saying that if Syria handed all their chem weapons over to the international community for destruction and signed a anti-chemical weapons treaty that would do it- thinking of course they never would seeing as the dont even admit to using them (assuming they did).

Shortly afterwards Russia announced it was talking to Syria about doing just that, and now seems Syria is ready to go along with it and hand the weapons over- although they still deny using them.

Don't discount the chess playing ability of the USA yet. Remember that nothing can strengthen Assad in the eyes of radical Islam more than standing up to public threats of the President of the United States.  

If a path exists in which peace can be resumed under the existing power structure, it's going to require a common outside enemy, much like America could never have united in the 18th century without outside pressure from England.  

I believe there are plays within plays in the drama that's currently on stage.

its progress for the Russians to make any move towards diplomacy, its a good sign I suppose.

I believe there are plays within plays in the drama that's currently on stage. - David

There do always seem to be in politics.  
(If it wasnt for the threat of international warfare hanging over it and all the dead people this would  in fact be very intriguing and interesting political stuff, just wish I was finding it intriguing and interesting from the perspective of say, 100 years in the future studying it as history)

Figg- personally I dont think Russia is doing this for diplomatic reasons, so much as to embarrass America, and he seems in particular to be out to embarrass Obama and has been for some time. It has made me wonder if Putin might just be a racist.

probably, but if Assad thinks his mate Putin is making conciliatory noises to the US, he may get worried (or not).

Whether he's racist or not, the people of Moscow are, and they're his target audience. He's astute enough though, that I don't think he will underestimate Obama based on his race, or pass up an opportunity. He's a pragmatist before he's anything else.

If it actually goes as planned it indicates that Obama was right to threaten a strike. Any other mechanizations are somewhat beside the point. I don't see how this can be seen as embarrassing America.

Well it does kind of look like he stepped up to the plate ready to swing for the ball only to find out someones nicked his bat.
Russia get the international kudos for brokering a peaceful diplomatic solution whilst America was posturing aggressively, and Assad gets to stay where he is without his command and control weakened or his air-force or their airbases (all likely US targets) and finish off the job of wiping out those who oppose him, and Russian interests in the country and region are reaffirmed and strengthened (and they can re-supply him with plenty more weapons later when the global eye is on the next catastrophe).
I think the US has been outmanouvered on this today- but we shall have to see how things go from here now.

This all begs the question, who does America hate more, Muslim extremism or the good old enemy, Russian (Syrian) Socialism? It raises in my mind the idea that the Religious hate (fear) Atheists more than they hate (fear) other Religions? America's support of Religion over Socialism when Russia ran Afghanistan may be a case in point. At the moment, for better or worse, I reckon Assad should not be toppled. And if the Syrians give up their chemical weapons, isn't that better than another war?

Orwell wrote:... At the moment, for better or worse, I reckon Assad should not be toppled. And if the Syrians give up their chemical weapons, isn't that better than another war?    

exactly - America was NOT outmanuevered; it arrived at its objective. Do you really think Syria would have agreed to turn over chemical weapons or Russia would have made the offer if there was no threat of a strike? This is a winning situation for everyone (assuming it goes as planned), and Obama will get credit for forcing everyone's hand.

I just watched Obama being interviewed on Fox News and thought he was awful- he has changed stance so often he just looks weak- first it was his red line in the sand, then it wasnt it was the world communities red line, then it was Congress red line, then he didnt need congress approval, then he did, now he is talking about at least two weeks of debate in Congress.
Kerry made the comment about giving up chemical weapons this morning, then the White House put out a statement saying it was rhetorical.
Now Obama's claiming it was his idea and he discussed it with Putin 'months ago' (but forgot to mention it to anyone presumably).
He looks like he doesnt know if he is coming or going on this.
This strengthens Russian influence in the region and undermines America's in my opinion.
Its been appallingly handled from the word go.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Now Obama's claiming it was his idea and he discussed it with Putin 'months ago' (but forgot to mention it to anyone presumably)....  ....  This strengthens Russian influence in the region and undermines America's in my opinion.

I always think of Russia as the enemy. But then I think, I get all my information (and perspective) from the Western Press. Of course, I trust the Western Press always, as we know it always portrays things in balanced and truthful and non-ideological way... always... ummm.... yeah always... God Bless America (-n Press).

Well Orwell, it doesn't help that where Middle Eastern states are involved, especially ones they have interests in, the Russians always seem to hold things up. The Chinese aren't much different either.

Putin does seem to have taken Russia back a few decades. At least the Chinese and Americans are generally consistent in their overall stance on things.

Looks like the probability of military intervention in Syria is decreasing thanks to John Kerry's "rhetorical" remark. My question is whether Obama is secretly grateful for the out.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/10/20416189-syrias-foreign-minister-well-declare-chemical-weapons-sign-arms-ban?lite

Eldorion wrote:Looks like the probability of military intervention in Syria is decreasing thanks to John Kerry's "rhetorical" remark.  My question is whether Obama is secretly grateful for the out.

I don't think there's any question he's grateful. This couldn't have worked better if it was planned, which I'm not convinced it wasn't. Kerry is a very good poker player.