Questions for the Lore Masters.

{{ Thankyou Elthir, interesting stuff there, and I am glad to see at least that if Tolkien felt a First Fall was necessary that it not too closely follow the Genesis account at least, that I simply wouldnt have adam 'n' eved. (I wonder how good Lore Master Cockney is?)}}

So in one of the videos Petty posted the assertion is made that the 7 and 9 were originally 16 undifferentiated rings. It's just that Sauron split them up the way he did. Does this ring true?

halfwise wrote: ( . . . ) Does this ring true?

I see what you did there. Nice.

halfwise wrote:So in one of the videos Petty posted the assertion is made that the 7 and 9 were originally 16 undifferentiated rings.  It's just that Sauron split them up the way he did.  Does this ring true?

The Rings being assigned to Elves and Men was Sauron's decision (unless you believe the Longbeards that Durin III got his ring straight from Celebrimbor; I don't). I've always assumed this means they were originally undifferentiated, but I don't think this was ever explicitly stated anywhere. Given the different powers/effects ascribed to the Nine and the Seven, I don't think one would be wrong to assume that they were designed to be different, even if it's not my interpretation. It's worth noting that OTROP states that Sauron "perverted" the Rings he captured, so any differences in their nature might be ascribable to that process, and/or to their interactions with the differing metaphysical natures of Men and Dwarves (i.e., "the Dwarves indeed proved hard and tough to tame").

Good to see you, Eldy!

I think you did a good job of covering all the bases there, Eldy.

Thanks, guys.

{{ Great to see you back Eldy! }}

Didn't Celebrimmor learn the craft from Sauron? So could the initial design have been different with the end goal in mind and the maker thinking it was his own idea?

Lancebloke wrote:Didn't Celebrimmor learn the craft from Sauron? So could the initial design have been different with the end goal in mind and the maker thinking it was his own idea?

I think that's a reasonable interpretation. It's not my take, since I don't believe Sauron had a premeditated plan to turn on the Elves and seize all the Rings for himself, but my view of Sauron and Celebrimbor is based on a raft of headcanons with a relatively tenuous textual basis, and I don't expect anyone else to share it.

{{ This doesn't really belong here but I couldn't find an appropriate thread where it would, as it not really a question, so much as an observation.
On one of my random flicks through Letters I came upon one in which Tolkien tells his son Christopher that he has heard of the posthumous upcoming publication of early previously unseen stories from Wind in the Willows, and how keen he is to get hold of a copy.

I'd never realised Tolkien was a Willows fan, so I'd never really given thought to their similarities. Both hark to a disappearing rural England, the Willows world has similarities to Tolkien's Shire. And one could go a bit further in comparing the basics of Moley and Bilbo - both live in a hole in the ground, both are well-to-do and don't want for anything, both are set in their ways and habits, and both have an unrealised potential and desire for adventure and to see  more of the world.

Just an observation that had not occurred to me before. }}

Wow, you are right.

{{ Another similarity which occurred to me is that both Bilbo and Moley are middle aged grown-ups when the story starts, and whilst they both live in a hole both holes are notable for their homely appearance and comforts, and whilst off on their adventures when it gets dark or scary they both think of their cosy hole-homes and wish they were back there. }}

Tolkien himself definitively answers the question "why didn't the eagles just fly the ring to Mordor?"