Narnia Chat

Lest we Forget...

I'd never forget; despite what others may say, Narnia really did captivate me when I was younger.

I liked the first three (by internal chronological order) with my favourite being The Horse and His Boy, but after Prince Caspian I just couldn't bring myself to read any more. The first three were great though.

The horse and his boy was always my favourite too! It has the best story, helped by the fact that it is not really linked to the others.

Magicians Nephew was my favourite. Something about the atmosphere of the time period its set in and the brilliant image of the place between the worlds with all the pools.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Magicians Nephew was my favourite. Something about the atmosphere of the time period its set in and the brilliant image of the place between the worlds with all the pools.

Definitely my favourite also.

GB

Having only read The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, I can't really pick a favourite! Out of the Films, Prince Caspian would be my favourite but I haven't seen Dawn Treader yet. *Hint hint*

Squach wrote:Having only read The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, I can't really pick a favourite! Out of the Films, Prince Caspian would be my favourite but I haven't seen Dawn Treader yet. *Hint hint*

Better get cracking on the books then.

Seriuosly though, anyone who likes the Hobbit ought to read the Narnia series. After all, CS Lewis and Tolkien were pals.

GB

Gandalf's Beard wrote:After all, CS Lewis and Tolkien were pals.

On the other hand, Tolkien did say in Letter 265 that "It is sad that 'Nania' and all that part of C.S.L's work should remain outside the range of my sympathy, as much of my work was outside his."

Though I don't entirely agree with that sentiment.

Eldorion wrote:

Gandalf's Beard wrote:After all, CS Lewis and Tolkien were pals.

On the other hand, Tolkien did say in Letter 265 that "It is sad that 'Nania' and all that part of C.S.L's work should remain outside the range of my sympathy, as much of my work was outside his."

Though I don't entirely agree with that sentiment.

Yeah, and he called Narnia a "hodgepodge." Utter Rubbish I say . Tolkien definitely lost a couple of points on my like metre for that one .

If i had to choose where I'd rather live--Narnia or Middle Earth--it would definitely be Narnia. Middle earth is a fun place to visit, But there aren't enough "fun" creatures. The Elves, Tom Bombadil and the Ents are about it, all the other critters are Orcs, Balrogs and other "Fell Beasts". There is only one awesome Dragon, and they had to go and kill it.

No Pixies, no Faeries, no Unicorns, no Minotaurs, no Fauns, no Centaurs, no Winged Horses, no Dryads, no Naiads, no River-God, no Bacchus, no God of Time, no Marshwiggles, No Mermaids etc etc. Tolkien's world is all serious and dramatic...except for The Hobbit--but that's because Bilbo embellished his story a bit.

GB

To paraphrase Monty Python;
'On second thoughts lets not go Narnia. It is a silly place.'

I prefer Tolien to Lewis, but the margin is not great. Magician is my favorite, closely followed by TLTWATW. The Horse and his Boy is very good, and The Silver Chair could have been better if not for the silliness about Aslan telling the children things which they promptly forgot - there is plenty of filmworthy stuff in Chair - and I just love Puddleglum. Indeed, Chair in my opinion could be the best film if made. (If I were to rewrite Chair, I'd have Lucy and Eustace as the main characters. Some re-creating would be necessary, but the adventures would not have to change). Prince Caspian was good, but the film I feel definitely improved on it. Dawn Treader was okay as a book, but not my favorite by any means. I'm interested to see the movie. The Last Battle was weak and tired I feel:-Jane

I've seen Dawn Treader and thought it was by far the weakest of the films to date.
My memory of the original book is hazy so I'm not sure how close it stays but its main problem is that the story is dull. Its a classic quest of the type that used to make up the bulk of dungeons and dragons games. X amount of swords/wizards/gems, spread about, go to each place, brave some danger or other, find them take them to x place. And it suffers from a lack of a defined villain. The green mist doesn't cut it.
Oh and the end, through no fault of their own, is a bit ruined if you've ever seen ghostbusters. And there's a few overt religious bits I could have done without- but I could say the same about the books there so that's not really the films fault.

Tolkien writes EPICs and is awesome at language and world-building. And I love all that stuff too. When it comes to writing Style and the stuff I just mentioned, I much prefer Tolkien. But apart from the Shire, it's not a place I'd live in if I had the choice. I like a wide range of fun magical critters, and Narnia has that in spades.

GB

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I've seen Dawn Treader and thought it was by far the weakest of the films to date.
My memory of the original book is hazy so I'm not sure how close it stays but its main problem is that the story is dull. Its a classic quest of the type that used to make up the bulk of dungeons and dragons games. X amount of swords/wizards/gems, spread about, go to each place, brave some danger or other, find them take them to x place. And it suffers from a lack of a defined villain. The green mist doesn't cut it.
Oh and the end, through no fault of their own, is a bit ruined if you've ever seen ghostbusters. And there's a few overt religious bits I could have done without- but I could say the same about the books there so that's not really the films fault.

I haven't seen the film yet, but I expect it actually might have improved on the book a bit. As to the "Religious" stuff. CS Lewis was a Pagan who thought he'd become a Christian. When he has the part about Aslan saying "you'll come to know me by another name" back on Earth, he was also referring to all the other Solar Gods that preceded Jesus too. He knew perfectly well that the Jesus story was based on previous Solar Cults.

When he was visiting Greece with Joy Davidson, he remarked that he thought that worshiping at the Shrine of Apollo wouldn't have been wrong. I've written a number of essays and articles on Lewis and done a lot of research about him, and there is no question that he was far more Pagan than Tolkien. So there is no doubt that "knowing Aslan by another name" carried with it all the other names of the Sun Gods that Lewis was familiar with.

Some required reading for understanding Lewis's world-view include The Discarded Image (all about the Medieval Pagan/Christian syncretism), Mere Christianity (wherein he actually expresses some very Gnostic Views), and The Abolition of Man (in which he uses Taoism as a means to explore the Universal Constants of all the Major Religions). None of this is surprising, because Lewis was big on Plato and other Pagan Greek Philosophers. Had Lewis been born a generation later, he would have very likely shared the views of people like Alan Watts, Mircae Eliade, and Joseph Campbell.

GB

You mentioning Lewis' "Gnostic" views reminds me of a certain Gnostic quality to some of Paul's writing, especially in Romans. Indeed, the whole New Testament is riddled with "Gnostic" ideas from memory. This could be a problem with putting ideas (and people) in boxes. "Fundamamentalists", "Gnostics", "Literalist", or even "Liberals" (I think of Spong here), often have much more in common than they publicly admit:-Jane

janesmith wrote:You mentioning Lewis' "Gnostic" views reminds me of a certain Gnostic quality to some of Paul's writing, especially in Romans. Indeed, the whole New Testament is riddled with "Gnostic" ideas from memory. This could be a problem with putting ideas (and people) in boxes. "Fundamamentalists", "Gnostics", "Literalist", or even "Liberals" (I think of Spong here), often have much more in common than they publicly admit:-Jane

I'm not sure that I can agree that Paul was particularly "Gnostic," though it is apparent that not all the writings ascribed to Paul were actually written by Paul. I would have to go back and re-read some of "Paul's" stuff before making any categorical statements though. It's true that some of the Gospels have "Gnostic" elements...but it largely depends on interpretation. The one part that particularly stands out as being Gnostic is when Jesus says something like "are ye not all as Gods?" or something like that.

Now Gnosticism isn't a box. It is either the way people self-describe their views, or when they express views that are clearly Gnostic in origin. But I don't have any problem with putting certain viewpoints in boxes, though I agree it's trickier when describing the people holding such views. But here in the US it's very easy to put people in boxes, because people are very overt about their religious views here, and will obligingly self-describe as Fundamentalists, Literalists, Universalist, or Liberal etc.

You are right about Spong though. He actually borders on Agnostic really, as "liberal" as he is.

GB

I still haven't seen this. Good or bad? Worth watching?

odo banks wrote:I still haven't seen this. Good or bad? Worth watching?

If you are referring to The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, I would say it is definitely worth watching.

GB

Thanks GB. I liked the first two but the vibe has not been good on this from what I can tell. I'll borrow it I think and draw my own conclusions. That's always best.

odo banks wrote:Thanks GB. I liked the first two but the vibe has not been good on this from what I can tell. I'll borrow it I think and draw my own conclusions. That's always best.

Indeed it is. But I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

GB

I thought Dawn Treader was the poorest of the films so far, but that may be more the fault of the book. Its been a long time since I read the book so I was not sure how much had changed, but the fact that I seriously struggled to recall what the books plot was tells me it was probably as thin in the book as it is in the film. It doesn;'t help that they struggle to know what to do with a green mist as the bad guy, the end is quite heavy handed on the Christianity and for a certain generation of viewer the big ending with the bad guy is a bit 'Stay Puft Marshmallow Man'.
I heared it didnt do very well at the box office- a shame if it ends the franchise for no other reason than I've waited a long time for someone to make a film of favourite Narnia book, the Magians Nephew.

Apparently the studio is in talks to have The Magician's Nephew be the next film made, but (contrary to what Wikipedia says - this is a case where I'm annoyed at the site and its undoing of edits) the film hasn't been signed off on by any of the major players, and - importantly - it hasn't been given a budget.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I thought Dawn Treader was the poorest of the films so far, but that may be more the fault of the book. Its been a long time since I read the book so I was not sure how much had changed, but the fact that I seriously struggled to recall what the books plot was tells me it was probably as thin in the book as it is in the film. It doesn;'t help that they struggle to know what to do with a green mist as the bad guy, the end is quite heavy handed on the Christianity and for a certain generation of viewer the big ending with the bad guy is a bit 'Stay Puft Marshmallow Man'.
I heared it didnt do very well at the box office- a shame if it ends the franchise for no other reason than I've waited a long time for someone to make a film of favourite Narnia book, the Magians Nephew.

You make some fair points, but the film in many respects actually improves on the book (which you yourself imply). The book has very little "plot" in the sense that there is a lack of motivation and overarching connection of the episodic narrative of the book. I do take some issue with the charge that the end of the film and book is "heavy handed" regarding Christianity, but frankly, it's perfectly understandable that many people would perceive it so.

The problem with presuming that the ending is a patently Christian affair, is that the presumption assumes that Lewis is unaware of the pagan precedents of the "Christ" figure. Many mainstream Evangelical Christians (largely in the US) both liberal and conservative, who tout CS Lewis as an unabashed Christian generally gloss over this fact.

But the more Extreme Right Christians clearly recognize CS Lewis as the "Enemy." In their view, CS Lewis has such a liberal sense of theology that he is essentially a Pagan; which to them translates as a "Satanic Occultist" leading children astray. I don't have time right now, but I will post some links and excerpts of their screeds. And the thing is, ironically the more Extreme Christians have a better measure of Lewis than do the Mainstream ones.

If one takes the Narnia books at face value (and most children do), the Magical Pagan aspects are far more apparent than the Christian ones. And any adult who actually does some research into Lewis's views will come to understand that Lewis's Pagan aspects are far more apparent than his Christian ones. Indeed, when Lewis converted from Atheism to Christianity, he did so by putting Christ in a Pagan context, a Pagan Christ if you will. Again, I don't have the time at the moment, but I will post some of my research on the matter which contains a wealth of evidence to support this fact.

But very briefly, Lewis grew up with a love of fairy tales and Pagan mythology, that by far overwhelmed the prevalent Christianity of the culture that surrounded him. As an atheist young man and adult, Lewis continued this love affair as a scholar of Medieval Literature and Classical Greek, Teutonic, and Celtic Pagan Mythology, not to mention having a more than passing knowledge of the pre-Classical myths of the Sumer/Babylonian and Egyptian Mythologies. By the time Lewis converted, he did so with the Knowledge that Pre-Classical and Classical Solar Cults (ala the Mithra[s] and Appolonian traditions) were the precursors of Christianity, right down to the imagery associated with those traditions; including the golden Lion which have traditionally represented the Sun Gods who cyclically annually died in the winter to be reborn in the spring--a story which Lewis also retold in The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. Consequently, The Magician's Nephew is also a story strewn with Celtic (Arthurian), Classical Greek, Western Occult traditions (Hermeticism, Gnosticism, and Alchemy), and Persian / Arabic/ Hindu Pagan Myth and Magic (which is no doubt why The Magician's Nephew is also my favourite Narnia book).

Even as a Christian, when Lewis traveled to Greece, he practically worshiped at the Shrine of Apollo, feeling it was only right that he should do so, believing (rightly) that Apollo was a pre-iteration of Christ. Lewis even gave his Lion/Sun God the name Aslan which is the Turkish, Persian and Arabic name for The Great Lion. Given that Lewis was so steeped in this Pagan Lore, when Aslan at the end of The Voyage of the Dawn Treader states that Lucy and Edmund shall get to know him better by another name, the statement comes with all the Pagan "baggage" that Lewis associated with Christ.

It is therefore ironic that Lewis, who was out of step with British Christians (including Tolkien) by avidly proselytizing for Christianity, actually was more Pagan than Tolkien, who had always seen Pagan mythology as inherently Tragic--Lewis on the other hand, viewed Pagan mythology as Sensual and bursting with Life and Joy. Had Lewis been born a generation later, I am reasonably certain that he would have shared the nuanced views of Joseph Campbell and Alan Watts.

GB

As promised, this is probably the best of the Christian Anti-Lewis screeds.

It's well worth reading all the way through, as it is very thoroughly researched and I have confirmed much of it from other sources. The only negative, of course, is the author's Anti-Satanic-Occult-Pagan spin on Lewis.

http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/homemake/narnia.htm

This next site is just some crazed whacked out nut-job. Though some of the info is based on fact, the rest of it spirals into Bad LSD Trip.

Well worth reading just for the entertainment value and a good giggle. ....make sure you have plenty of Buckie or your favourite Pipeweed at hand when you read this one.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Hellivision/narnia.htm

Among the links on this website is one which takes you straight to the first one I posted.

GB