All New Who

So this is a big change for the writers

https://deadline.com/2023/11/doctor-who-bbc-disney-writers-structure-residuals-1235638037/

{{{ Mmm, I wonder if this is really about the residuals, or if they are just collateral to the real aim. As I understand it the old deal also meant the writer kept the copyright too, which recently led to the debacle over the very first story of Who from An Unearthly Child through the Cave of Skulls stuff being missing from the 'complete' backlog of Who made available on BBC iplayer. This was because the rights to it remained with the estate and the son has some serious issues with the BBC over how they treated his father, and strong personal views about the BBC's output indoctrinating children into leftist stuff, and so refused to let it be included.
So my suspicions are raised this might be more to do with how the rights in the old contract worked as opposed to residuals, one way to tell is if there is stink about residuals from writers unions and the BBC and Disney back down quickly on that bit but still alter the contract, as that would indicate residuals were not be the main aim of the change. Time will tell, appropriately for a Who thread. }}

{{ I still cant get over how shoddy a way to open this 'special' those monologues to camera were, the show has done this twice before-





When you compare not just the performances, but the creativity, the imagination that has gone into how to shoot them, how to let the actors move (and yes they let Capaldi fulfil another childhood dream thats actually him playing the theme tune on electric guitar), and then you watch the 60th opening with two stilted awkward monologues where no one moves, just a static locked off camera, he is just standing there with the odd face close up, and she's just sitting at her kitchen table, like they did them in their lunch break or something. There was just no attempt to make it interesting or to make you want and need to know what happens next. }}

I assume the monologues by the Doctor and Donna at the start were a late addition to the story-Tennant was clearly standing againist a greenscreen and I think his hair was slightly longer in that scene, probably filmed at the same time as the Davros minisode for children in need. I'm guessing it was a note by Disney to clarify things for new viewers.

I did smile at the 'once upon a timelord' line by Tennant...I'm guessing RTD is going to politely ignore the Timeless Child stuff.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

When you compare not just the performances, but the creativity, the imagination that has gone into how to shoot them, how to let the actors move (and yes they let Capaldi fulfil another childhood dream thats actually him playing the theme tune on electric guitar), and then you watch the 60th opening with two stilted awkward monologues where no one moves, just a static locked off camera, he is just standing there with the odd face close up, and she's just sitting at her kitchen table, like they did them in their lunch break or something. There was just no attempt to make it interesting or to make you want and need to know what happens next. }}

I have to admit, I've come to expect more from Rachel Talalay as a director-compared to the Doctor Falls/Heaven Sent etc the shots choices and lighting in this episode didn't stnad out very much-very much competent but not very interesting blocking.

{{ As I mentioned above somewhere I think she responds to strong material, particularly stuff that lets her have creativity in how to represent ideas or imagery, and there just isn't a chance for that here, it's a by the numbers competent bit of directing, as you say, but if I didn't know it was her, nothing in it stood out enough that'd would have made me think it was directed by her. }}

{{ There's a thing with Who and the trans community that's been going for a while, I'd poked into it a bit to see what was going on, you see it seems the 12th Doctor has a strong following among the trans Who community, and the reasons for it are fascinating and led me to thinking about that era in a whole new fashion. I'd thought of mentioning it before, but I didn't feel entirely qualified. You see 12's arc deeply resonates with trans folk, and I don't think its accidental, in fact with hindsight I'm fairly sure it wasn't, as from at least series 9 Moffat new Chibnal was coming in and wanted a female Doctor, so his arc for 12 is about transitioning, questioning himself, finding himself, and becoming female at the end, but why all those things resonate so much as I say I'm not qualified to say, luckily I know someone who is, Council of Geeks who just made a video on this very subject, and I highly recommend it. I've always said Moffat is a thematic writer, and more subtle than he often gets credit for, and it seems he did the perfect trans story in Who without either offending anyone, ruining the narrative, or making anyone out of character, and yet there it is, resonating with a trans audience through shared experience. That's how you do it RTD, not by throwing everything in everyones face and yelling 'accept it or you're an awful person'. Show don't tell. Inform don't bully. }}

{{edit add - put up wrong vid! Well it was related but wasn't their main piece on it- }}

well that episode was great. proper sci-fi story.

Hmm...I'd rate it as a solid 6.5/10, very creepy at times and tightly plotted, but kinda fell apart under its own amibition at times, the beginning scene with Issac Newton (who is now mixed race apparently) was extremely clunky (clunky dialogue is a recurring ossie with this episode) some of the CGI was awful and yet again it really does feel like this 60th anniversary is ignoring all other doctors and eras. For all the creepy twists and turns it just ended up feeling like a standard Dr/Donna run-around.

I give RTD full marks for being more experimental, I just don't feel it succeeded 100% and ulimately I wondered what was the point? If you are going to push The Dr/Donna so far out of their comfort zone shouldn't it have more of an immediate impact?

Nice to see Wilf again though.

It did remind me of 2 Big Finish stories (which are both much better btw):

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Ship_in_a_Bottle_(audio_story)

https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Scherzo_(audio_story)

{{ I had to rewatch parts of that in case I'd missed something and it wasn't actually as shallow and empty as I felt by the end of it. But no, it was.
Its an odd episode that builds up far more mystery than its story can actually deliver on, there are numerous mysterious things happening all adding up to ask the one big question, what is going on? And when you do that you damn well better have an interesting answer. This didn't.
The plot of this is basic to say the least- Doctor and Donna get stranded on a empty spaceship at the edge of the universe, two weird beings from beyond the edge of the universe, who don't understand concepts like scale and form, yet, but are creatures fed off all the war and violence emitting from our universe. They take on the forms of the Doctor and Donna and set out to terrify them in order to speed up the process of copying their minds and their memories, as scaring them apparently make it quicker. Meanwhile all the mysterious other goings on are because the original captain of the ship set the ships self destruct but at a super slow rate, as not understanding concepts like fast and slow the aliens wont know to stop it. So the whole mystery boils down to, the captain set the self destruct, get off before it reaches zero. Its that mundane.
And that's it really for this entire episode. Most of it is setting up all the mystery and ominous feeling and being chased by grotesques of themselves.

It felt to me as if it were trying to evoke RTD's best in Midnight, or one of Moffat's bottle episodes like Listen, or Heaven Sent, but it was woefully short of depth, meaning or content for that.

There were conversations had that filled out some character stuff, though I wished RTD had left Flux out of it, what did Donna have a dog alien too? You think that'd have have sparked some issues? Is half the universe gone now? But that included half our solar system? Too many holes, too much stupidity, he should have left it alone. And what did we learn in the 'character' stuff- that the Doctor now gets to mope and look sad about Flux and feel wracked with guilt about it just like he did as 10 over the Time War- there was a reason Moffat got rid of the mopy angst grief ridden Doctor, it was played out after 7 series! And this weak replacement scene for it is awful.

And the TARDIS just turning up in the nick of time out of nowhere to save the day, that seems familiar, oh yes, the last time Tennant met a being from beyond the universe it was a giant devil and he was trapped on a planet going into a black hole, until the TARDIS appeared out of nowhere to save the day. At least do something new RTD!!!

And why was Sir Isaac Newton race swapped for an Indian guy? What was the point of that, in fact what was the point of that opening, is the gravity becoming 'mavity' meant just as a running joke or is that what it's called in Who now?

I could also have done without the conversation about how hot Isaac was and the implication the Doctor is now bisexual and that Donna thought he was probably gay all along. I thought the Newton stuff would at least play back into the theme or the solution of the episode in some fashion, but nope, its just a thing that happened.

The effects were a right mixed bag too, ranging from the grotesquely efficient to the grotesquely playstationesque.

Mutton dressed as lamb this episode. Shallow, meaningless and as far I could tell also pointless,it didn't move on any narrative about the characters in any meaningful way, it gave us zero new information on why this Doctor looks as he does, it did nothing whatsoever in the way of being part of an anniversary celebration of the show, it felt again like a mid-series run of the mill RTD episode, nothing special about it destined to be quickly forgotten.
Better than last weeks, but not by much and the scifi is up to RTD's usual standard of seen it all before. }}

About to leave for work, looking forward to reading your thoughts later Petty, was anyone else ocnfused by whay Wilf was sitting by himself in the wheelchair at the end of the episode? he seemed surprised to see the Doctor again, and said the rest of the family was is hiding, so if the world was going crazy why did he decide to wheel himself outside and sit the middle of the street by himself? or did I miss some dialogue? was this a pre-planned meeting with Donna?

The Isaac Newton thing was yet more race swapping rubbish, RTD just couldn't help himself.

{{ Given this was the super secret episode, the one that was 'redacted' in trailers and most mysteriously for a 60th anniversary episode in which folk had hopes of seeing other Doctors, was the only one of the three the BBC did not issue a cast list for - it now seems all that was just to hide the fact, and avoid all the build up being about, the casting of a non-white Isaac Newton.

What bothers me is there is no reason to do this, the only possible excuse for casting a non-white actor in that role in a country of overwhelmingly white actors is to stick two fingers up to people who do not like the progressive politics being put to the fore in current Who.
It's done solely to provoke and to start a fight. There is no narrative, no employment, no historical reason to justify it. The only remaining reason is to wind up the other side.

And I would rather my Who was not being used by RTD to fight his personal political battles with, I just want good Who stories back please.

Malick- unless I also missed something nope, he just appears to be sitting in his wheelchair all alone in the middle of the street while the world goes to chaos in random violence around him, maybe they will give some explanation next week, but I would not count on it, I suspect plot convenience is as good as we can hope these days by way of explanations.}}

Much better than the first special. Not that it feels like a special, but a fun episode. Nearly cried when Wilf came on.

Could have dropped the Issac Newton part. Especially the raceswap thing.

But daughter said something interesting. It would be ok if they somehow do something (as timetravellers) that makes this true. Seems she's not far off with the mavity and whatever that salt trick did. So... I sort of feel I might have been played by RTD and I don't mind if I was. The story was about deception and things not being what they seem. Wonder where this will go?

It's good to watch with young ones. Clever and more in touch with today's moods. Good to have input from that perspective.

{{ I certainly hope that's the case Amarie, It's what I initially thought on watching and that it was too in the face and provocative not to have some further justification alongside the gravity/mativity thing, which I thought was going to be how the Doctor recognised the real Donna, but then it just never came back into it again other than as a joke, so I do hope its a long play and your lass is right and it will be addressed in the final episode and the seemingly random and loose bits of this can come together. }}

I think RTD is an aggressive propaganist for CRT and gender politics. He is determined to slap white people in the face with his revisionist garbage. Bit like that other Sri Lankan cretin from BBC Radio 5 who has 'mental health issues' being in an office with too many white people. I kid you not, those are his actual words. His salary per annum is £150,000. Can you imagine the ungrateful, arrogant, anti-white racism in that fools' mind. The BBC needs defunding asap. It's a propaganda machine.

Hmm, the more I think about 'The Star beast' the less i like it-it just felt like a lazy generic episode, 'Wild Blue Yonder' was certainly flawed (and frankly I've seen this kind of high concept story done better elsewhere) and not the classic episode some of the reviews claim, but thinking it over I'm more forgiving something of admirable misfire...anyone else kind wish they had saved it for the next series instead? I feel it would have been more interesting with a new doctor/companion who have more reasons to distrust each other/less of a history together.

If the first special was a safe soft reboot story, the second special the weird experimental/homage to Moffat's style episode, does than mean the 3rd special is the crazy fan service one? We know the Toymaker/Mel/Kate Stewart are all returning and I'm guessing if other Doctors are going to appear it will be here-as cameos in the Doctors mind/guardians of the edge like in 'The Power Of The Doctor'...not going to lie even ignoring how iffy the storylines are nothing so far about this anniversary feels particularly celebratory of 60 years, they just feel like the kind of story you could tell in any other series.

I always thought it was unlikely Capaldi would come back, Eccleston would never return to the show whilst RTD is in charge but I'm rather surprised Matt Smith dosen't appear to be involved with the specials at all-he was arguably just as popular/high profule as Tennant and i'm sure he'd have lept at the chance to return...

and not the classic episode some of the reviews claim- Malick

{{The official reviews somewhat puzzle me as this episode simply has no meat on its bone, like all RTD scifi what you see first time through is all there is to get, it doesn't have layers it's all on the surface. And I suspect if there is connecting tissues between all these specials that will be revealed in the final part it will be little more than it was in previous RTD, some word like 'mavity' or some other small repeated detail and nothing more. Mind you these same reviewers praised Chibnall era as the greatest Who ever and it took them till Flux to even start admitting it might not have been that great after all.
And I get the feeling the effects will be looked back on ten years with the same pain you get watching the cgi in the 10 episode with Gatiss de-aging and then turning into the final boss from Resident Evil, but with worse graphics than the ps1 original.
This episode wasn't terrible, it wasn't preaching continually (only occasionally and a bit more naturally) but it wasn't anything special or more than an average mid series episode should be, take out the upped budget and relative surrealism of the visuals and there isn't a lot here, Ive seen stronger character episodes between just two actors and characters in episodes of Red Dwarf, and it's a sitcom (if you've never seen it go watch 'Marooned').



does than mean the 3rd special is the crazy fan service one?- Malick

I've been thinking about this, and it kind of has to be, there is only one Anniversary episode left and so far there has been zero acknowledgment of any of the show that wasn't a part of RTD era or had Tennant in it.

But if it is the big celebration episode it needs more than we know is in it- bringing back Kate Stewart and UNIT sort of counts, but not really as they were already brought back in Chibnal era at the end, so we already had Kate and UNIT's big return.

I thought from the start the Toymaker is an odd choice for an anniversary, a villain yes from classic, the first Doctor, but from a story almost no one has seen as since first broadcast in the 60's three of it four episodes are missing from the library.
The Toymaker is not a villain you immediately think of when thinking of great classic stories or enemies, mainly because those episodes no longer exist to watch. My assumption then, and my hope still, is he chose the Toymaker as he can make pretty much anything seem to happen, allowing for some anniversary service within the plot.

And then there is Mel. Who was asking for Mel back? That's like wanting Adric back. No one liked Mel when she was on the show, she was a terribly written character quickly replaced with the superior Ace. The only interesting thing about Mel was the manner in which she was introduced, and if RTD makes her a well written character now it won't be the Mel folk remember so what's the point, and if he leaves her as was, what's the point? It's not like having Tennant back in the 50th for which there was huge desire from the audience to see him alongside Smith. No one has been bursting with anticipation to see Mel again. She was a character from an era of the show where in the minds of the general public it was dying on its arse (and for most of 6 and the first series of 7's they weren't wrong either).

So by my count UNIT and Kate don't count as a big anniversary thing as Kate is pretty modern anyway, series 7 onwards, and she was just in the finale of the last series three episodes ago and Moffat already got dibs on using her for an anniversary in the 50th so it doesn't feel special she is in it, the Toymaker does count but on pretty shaky ground given the lost episodes and relative obscurity of the character to a mass audience (he's one step up the ladder from Meep coming from a comic, the Toymaker was in the show at least), and Mel counts for an anniversary but I don't know who was wanting to see her back in the show anyway. Painful as it is to say there was more 'anniversary' content in Chibnal's finale episode 'Power of the Doctor' where we got to see 5,6,7,8 interact with the Doctor and their old companions (not brilliantly but it was still the best bit of the episode). It had more of an anniversary feel than anything we have got so far, and anything we have got proposed for this finale episode. So it really needs to be holding onto some secrets I think to avoid a general feeling of overall disappointment from these special as the 60th or being in any sense 'special'. }}

"Mind you these same reviewers praised Chibnall era as the greatest Who ever"

I lost all respect for TV reviewers when they raved over the Rings of Power. You begin to realize all these people are getting perks and access from studios, and don't want to give that up.

{{ In the case of Chibnal era press it was unfortunately and more obviously politically motivated, not necessarily right and left, but a general consensus it seemed that as it was the first female Doctor, it was a step in the right direction for equality and opening up the shows audience more, it would give a great role model to little girls as had little boys, so it had to be good, and to admit anything else was, for some reason, seen as admitting a female Doctor was a bad idea that didn't work, rather than the more obvious facts Jodie was miscast in the role and the writing for her Doctor was weak and unfocused, as was the writing of the companions.
It took till Flux for most mainstream reviewers of Who to start to complain about the writing and lack of character depth and development.
But for a long time that initial desire to not admit the first female Doctor was not going well was very strong in the press. It was as if they saw it as to admit it was anything less than brilliant was to admit the whole idea, the messaging, the female Doctor was all a failure. And being in favour of the messaging and having already spoken out so publicly in support of a female Doctor and the positive female representation, they just could not bring themselves to say anything ill of it.
And of course the worst of it was any criticism of the performances or writing were immediately shoved aside as being sexism and because the Doctor was female, further polarizing the debate. Needlessly in my view as it was obvious all along what the issues really were, and it was not the Doctor's ability to become female, that simply opens up this character to double the casting and story opportunities. But its implementation was bad. And that's what the press was afraid to say for so long. I get whiffs of something similar occurring here.}}

A female Doctor could have worked with the right casting, zero wokery, and great stories. How they messed up every aspect is mind boggling. Actually, it could have been great. Someone like Tilda, or if Bjork was an actress, hell, even Helena Bonham Carter could have pulled it off.

I think Helen Mirren has the correct crustiness and off-kilter abilities. But Bjork is obviously alien.

{{ A female Master worked brilliantly, it's about the right performer and good writing. The 13th Doctor was neither.

Halfy- Mirren would have been good 20 years ago, but she is in her 70's now and the Doctor is a surprisingly energetic role to perform, out of the NuWhHo Doctors Jodie is the only actor not to have sustained an injury in the role (and why am I not surprised she's the only one not to have done enough to get an injury!) }}

I always thought it was unlikely any other Doctors would appear in these specials-Matt Smith is extremely busy, Capaldi dosen't seemed interesting in returning, Eccleston will never work with RTD again, Whittaker was pregnant whilst they were shooting and only just left the role, and we saw the classic Doctors in Power Of The Doctor only last year, so what was RTD supposed to do?

RTD has spoken before that he isn't much of a fan of multi-doctor stories anyway (and honestly most of them tend not to be very good anyway i.m.o) so I suppose bringing back a former companion, and a future doctor instead is a good comprimise.

But yeah these first two specials just feel like series 4.5 rather than a massive celebration of the whole show, kinda like RTD is congratulatiing himself and assuming we all love Tennant as much as he does.