Dune

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Post by halfwise Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:31 pm

In the book she specifically says to Hawat she COULD be a stronger force protecting the Duke, but won't reveal her powers for fear of weakening him.  This is far more interesting (and powerful) than having her use her skills openly.

I hope she's just misunderstanding everything and we get the correct Jessica.  But I have doubts: Villanueve did refer to elevating her from "space nun" to "warrior priestess".  I would argue she already WAS a warrior priestess in the book.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:39 pm

{{ Agreed, its not that she isnt capable in the book, but she doesnt have to, her powers are far more subtle and therefore influentiual than just 'kick ass' which is weak and lazy way to express her powers and influence. And its not her job, there are those those job it is who are very competent.
Bit like the UK Queen, she has lots of power, lots of influence and can shape and alter events, but you dont expect her to go fight hand to hand, she has people for that and she doesnt have to. }}

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:46 pm

I saw Dune (part 1) last night btw. Smile

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Post by halfwise Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:33 pm

Well, out with it!  Or is the smile all that we get?


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Post by Mrs Figg Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:51 pm

bounce and? ..............
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Post by Forest Shepherd Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:49 pm

It's good. Smile

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:57 pm

rofl, jk.

Yeah it's a solid production. Gone is the zaniness and pale white sands of Lynch's version; in is the grand scale, clean-cut visuals, and golden desert of Villeneuve. If you're familiar with Blade Runner 2048 or whatever it was called, then you know what to expect in the huge, empty rooms of the sets, the darkly-lit halls, the minimalist architecture. I can't complain about any of the visuals. It's beautiful. The watery landscape of Caladan is nice, although a scene in which an enormous ship rises from a lake without lowering its water levels arched my eyebrows.
The homeworld of the Harkonenn's is dark and unmemorable, like its soldiery: all in black with pale maggoty faces inside.
The Sardukaur are basically orc's, complete with super-bass hype-men straight out of the entrance of the Easterlings through the Black Gates. They are chillingly cool when first introduced, but quickly become functionally indistinguishable from the Harkonnen's all-in-black soldiers.

The sound is good, but loud. Loud enough with just the roar of the sandworms' passages, the explosions of mega-ships and blasting of stone buildings, but the score is also heavy on percussion and wailing female vocals. So even when a landscape shot is fairly quiet, there will be the sharp staccato of drums layered over eery chanting. It's not bad though. The effect is dramatic and powerful. Space opera. (Is Dune the quintessential space opera?)
And it's not all Interstellar BRRRAAAHHHHHHHHs. The assassin-bug has a lovely mosquito buzz, and there are moments of peace in the desert and inside the cavernous buildings.

Hm.. so much to say..

Well, one of the things that an adaptation of Dune needs to do is to convince the audience that it is epic and grand in scale, and that its religious themes are authentic and powerful. This movie is very good at being epic and grand through its visuals and sound. And it also takes its time, like a good old Hollywood classic.
Its religious themes are, I think, less convincing. It has too much of the whispered dramatic pronunciation of non-English phrases and terms, but the earnestness with which the characters speak about these prophecies and the way that the prophecies drive their actions feels meaningful. Characters have a delightful tendency to wail out, roar wildly, or yell when caught up in some religious fervour or overwhelming insight. it could be corny, but Villeneuve is gold-tier and it all just feels good and believable.

People are generally polite or matter-of-fact with each other. There is none of the pointless peacocking or empty threats of violence that crop up in lesser works. I understood what characters wanted and why they wanted them. They have their loyalties, their loves, their ambitions, all on screen playing out rationally and believably. Good stuff.

The acting is excellent.The casting is hit-and-miss. Oscar Isaac as the Duke can do no wrong, he is a delight. Rebecca Ferguson is emotive and lovely as Lady Jessica.

Stellan Skarsgard is in too much fat make-up (at least I hope it's makeup, lel) to catch his subtleties, and he lacks the horniness of his book counterpart, although he is appropriately sensuous in his sloppy devouring of food.

Javier Bardem is.. I mean he's good. But he's just so "cool" as Stilgar, going around like he just don't care *snaps fingers three times* that I find him less human. Perhaps in the next film we will know him better.

Chani is played by "Zendaya". She's down-to-earth and not bad. Probably the only character in the movie that Chalamet could beat in an arm-wrestle. There just isn't enough of her in the film to know whether I like her in the role.

Charlotte Rampling as the Bene Gesserit mother-role is obviously Rampling and that takes you out. But she's well cast.

David Dastmalchian (the polk-a-dot guy from The Suicide Squad) is lovely as Piter de Vries. He has a timid little voice that plays well against the raging baritones of the Harkonnens.

Speaking of which, Dave Bautista as Beast Rabban was underwhelming. He's just not a very good actor, and lacked the stupid ferocity for the role. There's just not that much personality there. :/

Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho are played by Josh Brolin and Jason Momoa. Momoa is likeable enough, but Brolin feels like too big of a star for the role now post-Thanos.

One of the Harkonnen soldiers in the thopter (no spoilers) is deaf and has a cute little deaf voice. I thought that was some fun humanizing lol.

The herald of the emperor was a nice addition. Some gravitas there. Liet Kynes is a black woman now, go figure, but you get used to it and she's good.

And finally, our twink-in-residence, little Timothee Chalamet Upon Whom All Rests, what can we say of his Paul? Well... he does well. A good mixture of innocence and resolve. Perhaps most likeable when speaking with his father, least likeable when spazzing out on spice and yelling at his mom.

Overall, it's really good. It sets up the plot well, explains what is going on, delivers on the grandness that we crave, avoids cheese and slapstick, and does not betray its source material. Adapters of Tolkien could learn a thing or two.

P.S.
Speaking of Tolkien and casting controversies, the Fremen in this are entirely north-African/African/Middle-eastern looking types. Kind of a hodge-podge. This in the context of Dune feels appropriate to me, so I don't mind the difference between this and, say, Lynch's Dune. I wish the showrunners of the new Amazon show could have shown similar sensibilities: casting the show with actors from the ethnic background that most closely resembles the culture in the story that their characters are members of. Pretty basic stuff.
Oscar Isaac kind of passes as Greek too with his nice beard, so that was good stuff too.Smile

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Post by halfwise Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:40 am

And finally, our twink-in-residence, little Timothee Chalamet Upon Whom All Rests, what can we say of his Paul?

Laughing

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:07 am

{{ Hows the dialogue Forest? Thats one of my main concerns as at times from the trailer it seems like its severally abridged (so much so it sometimes seemed to miss the point of the original dialogue, but in trailers never sure if its final version or editied down) and has added 'humour' injected. Suspect }}

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Post by Forest Shepherd Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:42 am

The dialogue has been adapted. I've only read the book once, last year, but from what I recall there has been a good deal of summation. We also get little modern-sounding touches like, "you good?" Little stuff like that. It's definitely meant to sound like normal everyday dialogue. The exceptions are that certain religious lines like "Fear is the Mind-killer", public ceremonies and such, those are still more formally phrased.
Yeah if you're looking for a lot of the original dialogue unedited, erm... don't expect it.

That being said, it is a well-written script. The comedy is kept to a minimum. I think we saw all of it actually in the trailer, in the joke about Paul putting on muscle and Halleck saying that he was smiling.

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Post by halfwise Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:12 pm

So long as it captures the spirit and meaning I don't mind Herbert's dialogue being rewritten. There's little of it that sticks in the mind, as in the first book it's all directly serving the plot rather than defining the human side of characters. His characters are more carefully dilineated geometrical constructs than real people, so they stand out in your mind as clearly defined but you don't miss them when they're gone.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:34 pm

{{ Its not so much about characterisation with Dune dialogue so much as all the other stuff dialogue says and does in his book. The gom-jabbar dialogue in the trailer for example seems to end the Bene Gesserit dialogue right before the actual important point is made! }}

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Post by halfwise Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:39 pm

In depth review, brings out that the mentats are not really developed, some other things left out.  But I regret jilting the mentats.

Like me he wasn't sure about Jason Momoa, but says he really fills the role.  Of course he's the least developed character in the book, so he just had to make him interesting and appropriate.

30 minutes long, worth watching if you're a fan.


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Post by Pettytyrant101 Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:06 pm

{{ Not watched it yet, but how can leave Mentats out,
Spoiler:
}}

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Post by halfwise Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:20 pm

Not left out, just less developed than in the books. Forrest will have to answer this, but the impression I got from the review is it didn't contradict their role in the books, just didn't clarify things the books make clear through internal commentary; film has to do it all through dialogue. They should have written in a bit more dialogue to expose what a mentat is and how they fit in.

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Post by Forest Shepherd Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:18 am

Erm yeah they didn't really explain what they were at all. Just showed that they could do math quickly.

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Post by halfwise Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:59 pm

One line: "function as a mentat for me..." followed by a request for a prediction about where the attacks would be coming from, or something like that.  Whole thing could be done in 30 seconds.   I saw a review of an interview of the actor, who said a brief scene was cut out where Thufir offered to resign for not predicting the hunter-seeker attack against Paul.  That may have come close to doing the job.  The actor said he regretted the cut because it showed the complex meta-awareness of Thufir: he saw that he was too emotionally close to perform the required calculations with the needed clarity (Went beyond the book! This guy went deep.).   It was cut for pacing rather than timing.  I'll see if I can find the original interview and post it.

Found it: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/dune-movie-stephen-mckinley-henderson-1235035496/

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Post by Forest Shepherd Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:05 am

There is such a scene in the film, but perhaps it was shortened.

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Post by chris63 Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:41 am

Never read the books and never watched previous film. Visually good, but found the actual film pretty slow. Thought I was about to watch an epic film, but 5 minutes after it had finished I'd forgotten it.

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Post by Forest Shepherd Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:39 am

Well it does take its time, true.

Noone else has seen it yet eh?

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Post by halfwise Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:17 pm

I'll be seeing it today in Imax. I have to say Chris's description is how I felt about Bladerunner II, another Villaneuve film, so that sort of worries me.

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Post by Mrs Figg Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:52 pm

Someone said it looks like a 2 hour perfume advert, and I think that probably sums it up from what I have seen so far. Visually beautiful but empty. Thats what I thought about the new Bladerunner film too. It was good to look at but slow and boring, and I forgot it instantly. It lacks heart and sparks.
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Post by halfwise Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:04 pm

Here's an entertaining review. Laughing

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2021/10/15/61978753/naked-oscar-isaac-is-but-one-of-the-many-pleasant-visuals-in-dune

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Post by halfwise Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:37 am

saw it in Imax, and have been delayed somewhat by meeting a friend in the neighborhood afterwards and went bar hopping so I hope I can get this out with whatever clarity is still left me. (I previously said there was no place like Manhattan for bar hopping, but have realized Tokyo likely has it beat. Haven't been.)

Spoiler:

All in all I felt 97% satisfied with this version, and look forward to the continuation.


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Post by halfwise Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:26 pm

One thing I didn't mention is how Villanueve refined the reason behind the gom jabbar test.  Herbert's conception was that the only way to test a human's ability to control the natural impulses was under threat of death, with death being the unfortunate side effect for those who failed. Seems a bloodthirsty penalty for a test that otherwise would have no other consequence other than training continues.  Villanueve brought this a step further in a separate scene, in which the reverend mother says that the test occurs partway through training, and the capabilities bestowed by the training are too powerful to entrust to one who cannot control their impulses.  I think that's a clever justification that makes the test and its consequences more logical.


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