UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Firstly Corbyn has always been a leaver and he has probably insisted on keeping a small door open to a labour brexit. - Figg

{{True he has, problem is its not a small door- Labour are standing and have done since the referendum as a Leave party, Leave with a soft leave but it's still leaving.
If you are a remain voter thats no good to you- why vote for a soft Brexit you still think is a lot worse than no Brexit at all when others are offering you the platform for revoking it altogether?

'His faithful will have followed his insistence'-

I dont think its just his insitence- its the arthimatic. Labour cannot win a general election with a majority if they lose all their leave voting seats. They will be lucky to even register in Scotland, I expect them to lose the few seats they have and to hang onto maybe one or two, primarily in leave fishing areas in the NE and in tory suburbia in the posh bits of Edinburgh. If youre a remainer in Scotland the SNP are the obvious choice. If you're in England then you've a wider choice of remainers- greens, Lib Dems and a lot of independents. Why would you vote for neither here nor there Labour?

There is no doubt Corbyn is at best ambivilant on the EU and at worst hates it as much as Mogg deep down. And its also true the majority of Labour supporters are remainers. But it's those crucial ones that are not I don't see Labour winning back, not to mention the Labour MP's who sit in those constituencies and who consistently voted with Boris and for his deal. Labour's house is no less divided than the Tories was- only Boris got rid of his opposition within his own party, Corbyns are standing for election (in the past week 2 long standing Labour MP's critical of Corbyn have been attempted to be ousted as MP's by Mometum and Unite through deselecting,  both failed- but big sign of the infight in Labour between moderate left and far lefties as well as the fact they lost in the attempt because the grasroots consttiuents backed their MP over Corbyn their party leader, that cannot be a good sign).

And if you want to leave why vote Labour? A leave party in little more than name given their version of a withdrawal deal is to agree to every rule we currently do? None of the things leavers voted for are satisfactorily in it- especially free movement of people given EU immigration was one of the big issues for leavers, and free trade deals, which under Corbyn's plan we couldn't do as we'd be regulatory tied to the EU, but without a say as we would not be a member, so any deal we strike outside the EU would still have to meet EU standards.
There is nothing there to appeal to leave voters when they have two clear choices between Tory leave with a deal and Brexit party leave without one.

All I can say is I am very glad I vote in Scotland where I can go SNP and not have too much of a moral dilemna, if I were voting in England honestly I dont know who I'd vote for.

But this is probably th telling thing, if it was a straight choice beween only Corbyn and Boris I'd vote for Boris and I have fucking hated Tories my entire life and Boris no less, if he wins he is planning to fuck over Scotland harder than Rocco Siffredi, but with less warmth- but I still think thats less a risk than Corbyn actually getting power and trying to enact these ruinous student union policies. Plus Corbyn as a leader is utterly incompetent. I wouldnt give him a dog to walk and trust itd come back alive let aone an entire country.

Last time Labour were in power they left office leaving behind a note for the incoming government saying 'sorry all the moneys gone' and that was modest Labour policy compared to the fantastical figures Corbyn is imagining. Just rebuying up all the buisnesses in the UK to renationalise them would be billions and billions of tax payer cash- and were going to have MP's run them? Anyone remember the 1970's? Power cuts, unions work to rule, three day weeks, only one TV broadcaster and only one telecommunications company, both stae owned? It was fucking horrible and bleak.

And the result last time of a Labour governments economic polices was over 10 years of cuts to public services to try to balance the books again.
How long will it take the country to rebuild its economy this time with all the crazy shit like pledging to buy enough property on tax payer money to house all the homelees in the UK?- which apart from anything else won't actually help- these people can get help now, we have a robust social security net that will provide them living money, find them a council house to live in and pay their rent- what they mostly really need is mental health help and vastly improved social sevicers - not some student union policies that fit neatly on a placard like 'house the homeless' which has no place in a grown up debate on the matter. }}

{{ Good example today of Labour policy and how they are thinking -

'Labour is promising to make all new-build homes "zero carbon" within three years, in an effort to curb housing shortages and tackle climate change...New homes would not be fitted with fossil fuel heating systems, such as gas boilers, as standard and would have "super-efficient insulation" and triple-glazed windows.'

All very well but how do you pay for it? well...

"We really should be looking to house builders to absorb these costs as well because this is an industry in recent years that has made billions in profits and paid millions in bonuses to top executives," Labour's shadow housing secretary John Healey said.

Yeah, cause thats going to happen. Or, far, far more likely, the cost would be passed directly onto the buyer making already over-inflated house prices further out the reach of the very working people Labour are supposed to help. Its student politics and student thinking, idealistic, sounds good but utterly lacking in any real world reality or practicality. }}

Corbyn is useless but at least he seems to want to sort out austerity and redistribute wealth. The thought of Mogg and IDS triumphing is appalling.

{{ The real problem for me Figg isnt Corbyn himself, as you say he's pretty much just useles, its whose behind him forming the policies making the directional choices- Momentum and Unite.
I dont believe that in a world with a captailist economy its a good idea to try not to have one.
I am all for redistributing of wealth but it has to be done in a manner that also grows captailism. You dont kill the goose to get the golden egg.
You cant have redistrubtion of wealth if there is no wealth to redistribute- if you want more money for the NHS, if you want more social services, free education, free prescriptions, then you have to have a strong captialist economy with a high rate of employment you can tax to fund it.

Labour want to pull apart the captialist system, renationalise private companies, hike up corporation taxes and taxes on the ultra wealthy to pay for it all, do away with private education- hows he going to reduce the national debt doing that, hows he going to reduce the cost of govenrment borrowing when his plans will require a lot more of it? There is only so much tax to be had. And the problem with that is if you go after the people who generate the actual money you soon end up with less taxes not more to spend than if you'd just left them alone to be rich. Investment falls, money gets moved out the country to avoid taxes, companies move their official HQ for same reason, employers employee less people meaning less tax payers and more benefit recipents. Maybe once upon a time but not in a global captialist market.

This is one of the reason I vote SNP- they are business friendly, low corporation tax rates- by 2020 17% in Scotland compared to 19% in England, lower business rates etc, this allows the SNP to tax the upper band at a slightly higher level than in England to pay for stuff like free prescriptions without damaging the wealth making process or detering inward investment.

'If you live in England, Wales or Northern Ireland and you have taxable income of more than £50,000, you will have to pay the higher rate of 40% tax on the amount above £50,000 up to £150,000. If you live in Scotland you will have to pay the higher rate of 41% tax on the amount above £43,431 up to £150,000.'

The aim is to create a good atmosphere and ease of work for business with competitve rates of business taxation- but to tax individuals at the top a little more instead.

edit add- Corbyn made his electionpledges whilst giving his speak to  'supporters at Commonweal Sixth Form College'.
If he wants to actually win its not kids he has to convince, its adults. And he cant hide from them forever.}}

I think that if Corbyn became PM  more sensible people in his cabinet would slowly bin the more extreme policies, McDonald is relatively sensible I think.

{{ McDonald? More sensible?- he's even more nutty than Corbyn. And he would be Chancellor if they won.

Even a quick wiki of McDonald will throw up things which should ring alarm bells.

He was part of the left wing disaster that was the GLC up until it got abolished.
In 2003 he had this to say about the IRA- "It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA".

He's a member of every leftist union and group going and in 2003 he said that "Marx, Lenin and Trotsky" were his "most significant" intellectual influences.
And went on to say,  "Look, I’m straight, I’m honest with people: I’m a Marxist."
Later when questioned on it by Andrew Marr he responded, ""I believe there's a lot to learn from reading Kapital, yes of course there is."

On private companies he says, 'McDonnell has explored ideas surrounding "alternative models of ownership", publishing a report on the subject in June 2017 and hosting a discussion conference in London in February 2018.[73] The report sets out the "practicality and necessity of a shift to a variety of alternative forms of ownership and control of productive enterprises, including co-operatives, municipal and locally-led ownership forms, and...new democratic forms of national ownership"'

In 2018, McDonnell claimed that he "wants to “overthrow capitalism” and replace it with a "socialist society"". He also insisted Venezuela's economic problems were because it was no longer a socialist country.

And this man would be our Chancellor!

And if you are hoping for another referendum with an option to remain in the EU with him don't hold your breath, he's even more anti-EU than Corbyn is-

'In September 2018, McDonnell said he would only back a second referendum on the European Union if the option to remain is not present.'

And he's often just not very nice- 'McDonnell sparked controversy when he joked that conservative politician Esther McVey should be lynched and described her as a "stain on humanity". He insisted that he was quoting a constituent.'

He makes Corbyn look like a moderate. }}

She is a stain on humanity. He has also campaigned against austerity, and,


"Among the usual rhetoric promising to get tough on corporations, especially those who dodge their tax commitments, there has been a noticeable softening in tone from the shadow chancellor John McDonnell who told a packed conference that “there are millions of businesses out there which deserve our respect and we will always support them”.

Earlier this year, McDonnell received warm applause after his conciliatory speech at the British Chambers of Commerce annual conference in which he promised a Labour government would champion business by ensuring small companies get the long-term investment and start-up risk capital they need.

This month it was reported that the shadow chancellor, who previously pledged to foment “the overthrow of capitalism” and brandished Mao’s Little Red Book at George Osborne in the Commons chamber, had met with top executives of investment behemoth Goldman Sachs, the latest stop on a so-called “tea offensive” to woo the City."



Esterson told The House there had been a “sea change in the attitudes of the business community towards Labour” since last year’s snap election, declaring: “The Tories have, in the immortal words of Boris Johnson, told business to f*** off - which rather leaves a space open for us.”

https://www.theweek.co.uk/96702/why-big-business-is-starting-to-take-labour-seriously

So you see, its not so black and white.

{{ Doesn't matter if she is nice or not - I prefer my politicians not to use death threats!
And that doesnt excuse everything else- he is a self confessed Marixts whose major political influences are Marx, Lenin, and Trotsky! Anti-EU. And way, way, way more to the extreme left that any elected politician in my lifetime anyway. Even the official Communist Party manifesto isnt this far left.
His policies are economic disaster, not to mention a massive attack on personal freedom (as extreme left and right always do when they get power).
He has got better, sort of, recently at softening his words because people dont want a Marxist chanceller! But his views have clearly not changed -look at announced policies- rehousing all the homeless with tax payer money, forced buying of property from landlords, forcing private companies to sell and nationalise (his seminar on that gem was only last year, his words might be more savvy but his views are just the same), abolitionof private education.
A vote for Corbyn and co is a vote for the far left, no better than voting for the far right. Its a vote for Momentum and Unite.}}

'The up-front cost of the Labour Party’s renationalisation proposals for water and energy utilities, train companies and Royal Mail is estimated to be £196 billion, according to new analysis by the CBI.

This cost of renationalisation is equivalent to taking every penny of income tax paid by UK citizens in a single year - and also as much as the annual spend on the Health and Social Care budget (£141 billion) and Education budget (£69 billion) combined.

Renationalisation would also have an ongoing impact (from maintenance and running costs and investment in future infrastructure needs), as well as a heavy impact on the UK’s public finances.

Britain’s largest business group estimates there could be a 10.7% increase in debt from bringing industries into government ownership, raising debt to levels not seen since the 1960s. Servicing this debt is expected to cost around £2 billion per year. While the Government’s assets would increase, and there would be the potential for revenue generated by these utilities, the confidence of international investors in the UK would be severely hit should Labour refuse to pay full market value for the industries.

Under Labour’s plans, savers and pensioners could also suffer an estimated £9 billion loss to their holdings, which translates into £327 for every household in the country.'- BBC

{{ Now there are ways to do this that doesnt undermine the rest of the ecnomy or break trust- the SNP for example are in the process right now of setting up a government run energy company- but thats the differene they are creating a government led energy company to compete in the market place with private companies in the hope of driving down prices through competition. Not by the forced selling of established buisinesses.}}

"Under Labour’s plans, savers and pensioners could also suffer an estimated £9 billion loss to their holdings, which translates into £327 for every household in the country.'"- BBC

The BBC are Tory apologists and have deliberately ignored the fact that these costs could change if nationalisation is profitable.

{{ It was an unmitagted economic disaster last time. Political scholars refer to the period a'managed decline'. And that was in a less capitalist less global economy.
Governments are not good at running companies, nor should they be it's not their job, their job is to run the country, set the laws, rules and framework by which they think it best to grow the economy, not to own it. Thats never worked, anywhere, ever. And it's not like it hasnt been tried.

I think its possible for publicly owned companies to compete in the marketplace, such as the SNP's planned energy company, but not if you buy up the marketplace. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ It was an unmitagted economic disaster last time. Political scholars refer to the period a'managed decline'. And that was in a less capitalist less global economy.
Governments are not good at running companies, nor should they be it's not their job, their job is to run the country, set the laws, rules and framework by which they think it best to grow the economy, not to own it. Thats never worked, anywhere, ever. And it's not like it hasnt been tried.

I think its possible for publicly owned companies to compete in the marketplace, such as the SNP's planned energy company, but not if you buy up the marketplace. }}

well the private sector has had a chance at running the railways and it hasn't worked out too well has it. It costs double the amount to travel from Manchester to Scarborough by train than from Manchester to Pisa by air. Actually the costs are so ridiculous by train that I have on occasion flown from Newcastle to Cardiff rather than getting the train. Nationalisation is a very popular Labour policy for that reason.

Plus if you have a disasterous transport minister like Grayling, obviously its all going to go tits-up, but Labour would have somebody a bit more competent. Corbyn wouldn't hinder a second Scottish indyref either. Johnson would.

{{ I am not saying there is not a place for nationalisation in some sectors. Rail is a complicated exmaple because of how the government sold it off piece-meal to maximise profits from the sale, but left situations where companies in charge of the train were no longer in charge of maininting the network, and another company was in charge of doing the signals etc.

A good example is the NHS, I believe private sector involvement in this should be limited and never front line, the ideal of care at point of need funded through equal taxation and provided free at need irrespective of wealth and with no profit motiation at point of delivery is essential to its existence.

Other examples are say Prestwick airport and Clyde Shipyards both in Scotland, which the Scottish government nationalised when they failed as private sector companies, because they were both considered assets to important to loose. But in both these examples the aim is to stabilise the company and get it back into a shape where it can be sold back to the private sector.

Scottish Water is also a nationalised industry and always has been (even before devolution). Water meters and bills are an unknown in Scotland, we pay a water tax thats considerably less than the water charges south of the border. But we have a lot of water, and as water management is also interwined with enviromental standards and with energy through hydro it makes sense for the government to oversee all three.
The company itself is run semi-indpendent of government as if it were a normal private company, with the differences being its fundng is from taxation and ministers have ulitmate oversight, scrutiny and responsibility for it on behalf of the tax payer- though further to it acting like a private company to all intents and practises you can choose to either pay via tax, or you can treat it as a private company if you prefer and pay direct to scottish water.

So its not like I am anti-nationlisation on principle.
There are places, times and needs when its a usueful or even the preferred tool to use.

The trouble I have with Corbyn's version is he is not looking to nationalise on individual merits, or in performance, or on quality of service, he is looking to do it as a matter of idealogy, of principle.
He just wants to nationalise, well, everything ideally, and his starting shopping list is big enough. It would be hugely expensive to buy it all up as he'd either have to pay the going rate so as not to deter or undermine the rest of the private sector, or he will have to force companies to sell below their value risking undermining the private sector investment- who would put their industry in the UK if any time they like the government could forcably buy it off you for less than its worth?
And then there is how long would it take (at a loss) to turn the failing ones round before they showed any profit for the nation? How much would we have to borrow and at what rates to sustain that till they do? How long once they do would it take for them to wipe out the debt incured of setting them up and maintaing them in the first place?

None of these questions are being asked of Corbyn so far. But if he were the PM he would need to answer them- do you feel like Corbyn has those answers? Because I don't.

You can do it as a one off, or in cases where nationlisation was how it was set up and envisioned and designed to be, like the NHS or Scottish Water, or where its deemed too valuable a national asset, like Royal Bank when the banking crisis hit, or Clyde Shipyards.

But to just have sweeping nationalisation for the sake of a marxist ideal? - thats a recipe for economic ruin. }}

I think Corbyn wants to invent a 21st century Marxism  in my 20s I was a member of the Socialist Worker party, but it all got a bit Monty Python so I left.

{{ Sadly Figg Corbyn is still at that level.


Why Scotland needs out this shitshow! }}

well that's the Tories for you, and that's why I will keep voting for Labour. They are the best of a bad bunch. I do understand where you are coming from as regards the total lack of respect, and its probably time to break up the union, and I never thought I would ever say that.

{{ Brexit in particular has thrown a spotlight on things for many folk in Scotland I think Figg. Scenes like the above, the devolved governments not being involved in Brexit talks (I don't mean with the EU I mean just with the UK government), the Scottish Parliament put forward a large cross-party draft of proposals and options and the UK government didnt even read it then dismissed it out of hand.

And its clear as day from many things Boris has said and begun to do that his next target after Brexit are the devolved administrations.
For that reason I hope Labour do win this election, but I also feel guilt at that as I wish no harm on the people of England and fear Corbyn, with Unite and Momentum behind him, would be very harmful.

But Labour are also Scotlands easiest and fastest route out of this Union. So they would be the better choice for me in that regard too. But I still can't wish Corbyn on England with anything less than a very heavy heart.
But I still expect Boris to triumph in the end anway, unfortunately.

After which, if so, I fear Labour will go into a long wilderness period of unpleasant in-fighting for control of the party between the far-left and the centre-left. }}

Yep if Corbyn loses he and his fanatical fans will probably just dig in and never accept defeat. In which case its game over for Labour, maybe for many years. with more and more extremes as they fight johnson's out of control stampede over the brexit cliff. It looks like all the moderates have fucked off leaving the nutters in charge. talking of which Watson has just resigned. for good or ill. I think the only glimmer of hope for Labour is the Brexit loons splitting the Tory vote.

{{ Watson going is victory for Moewmtum and Unite, they already tried to oust him at the party conferenc eand only failed because Corbyn himself blocked th emotion form goin gto a vote. This has ben comng, he was a right-hand man to Brown and close to Blair, a remainer in a leave constituency who has critisced Corbyn for his fence sitting on Brexit.
Its one of the few moderates left near the upper end of the party gone.

As to the Brexit party- Farage says he's going to field 600 candidates all over- but I fully expect it will be less than that in the end, and that he will do less to try to steal Tory seats, and nothing at all where there is a chance doing so lets Labour win, but will agressively target Labour leave seats with remain leaning MP's, but whose electorate traditionally wont vote Tory.
UKIP stole a couple of high-profile Tory heartland seats that were eye catching andheadline making, but they ended up hurting Labour in terms of votes more overall across the country than they did the Tories- I expect the Brexit party to do much the same again.}}

{{ Labour have announced their spending pledges- and its eye-watering stuff!

'John McDonnell will pledge £150bn for schools, hospitals and housing on top of existing spending plans to be paid for through borrowing...He will pledge "investment on a scale never seen before in this country, and certainly never seen before in the north and outside of London and the south east"...These investment plans are so big that some experts wonder whether a Labour government could actually commission projects at the rate required to get the cash spent...social and green spending together gets you to an average figure of £55bn a year in new money. That is nearly £5bn extra a month.
The strategy is to pay for all this by borrowing, not taxing."- BBC

So there we go. Labours plans for a country in rocky economic times, at the tail end of the biggest global economic collapse since the Great Depression, is to plunge us into massive debt again through borrowing vast sums. Because that always works.
And who will have to pay this debt off? Who will have to pay off the interest that there will be on the borrowing?
Yup tax payers for decades to come!

Labour are banking on all this spending boosting the economy of the future to such a degree we can afford to borrow all this money now and worry about paying it off later. That is madness.

I've been working poor my whole life and anyone in that situation will tell you the worst thing you can do to try to get out a hole when things are tight is borrow money or start getting payday loans. That way lies misery.

And lets not forget- this is just their spending plans for stuff like schools, hospitals, infrastructure, on top of this you can add in how much it will cost to nationalise all the industries they want to as well. So chuck a few more billions on the pile!


And perhaps knowing todays annoucements were coming as now former Labour Minister Ian Austin announced he is stepping down and won't stand at the election, and then, incredibly urged labour voters to vote for Boris over Corbyn!

"I think we should lend the Tories our votes at this election and stop Jeremy Corbyn getting anywhere near Downing Street.”
He said Labour’s deterioration under Mr Corbyn and its “laughable” stance on Brexit has left them unfit to run the country.
“The Labour Party has been poisoned by racism, extremism and intolerance under Corbyn’s leadership,” the 54-year-old said. “I only ever wanted to be the Labour MP for Dudley, but I always tell local people the truth and could never ask them to make him Prime Minister.”  -Express and Star

In Tory news Boris is off to Scotland to put the Union front and centre and to say that only a vote for Tories will top a second independence referndum. And to play up the Labour/SNP will make a pact and split up the union argument.

And Scottish Labour, who have been following this bizarre plan of late in Scotland of telling Scottish voters it doesn't matter how they vote they will not accept it anyway, and then expecting people to vote for THEM, continue this approach today-

'Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard has said he does not believe the SNP has a mandate for another Scottish independence referendum. He added that he does not think the SNP would have a mandate even after the 2021 Holyrood election (if they won).'

Or in short, even if everyone votes for a party whose main policy is a 2nd referndum, we still won't count that as people actually wanting one! Apparently this is Scottish Labours idea of democracy. You have to wonder what would count as mandate for Scottish Labour, perhaps the entire population going down to the border, flashing our arses across it and shouting "That's us fucking off out now!"    

edit add- and off politics- hope the harvest is going well Dave!}}}

Ian Austin works for the Tories as trade envoy. So obviously he is biased.

{{ If he was a lone voice maybe Figg, but he isnt. He's one of many Labour MP's now who have resigned, been forced out, left the party, or retired citing the same reasons- the bullying, intolerence and intimidation coming from the Corbyn wing via Momemtum and Unite. }}

{{ Another one! }}

'Explaining his decision to vote Conservative at the next election, former Labour MP John Woodcock says he wants to "keep Jeremy Corbyn from Downing Street" and "stop him getting his hands on the levers of national security and defence".'- BBC

The Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the Green Party have formed an electoral pact, agreeing not to stand against each other in dozens of seats.

{{ Covers England and Wales in 60 constituencies.
I am not in favour of such pacts as a general rule. It makes sense for the political parties but it denies voters choice. If you happen to be a huge fan of the Green Party and one of their biggest most enthuisatitic supporters, but happen to live somewhere they think the lib-dems have a better chance, you cant cast your vote for who you want as there is no Green candidate to vote for. }}