UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

{{edit add- transcript of the above vid for those like Dave with steam powered internet! }}

"I think Donald Trump is clearly out of his mind if he thinks that's a sensible way to proceed. You can't just ban people going to the United States that way, or indeed to any country. And what he is doing is playing the game of the terrorist and those who seek to divide us. That is exactly the kind of reaction they hope to produce.
And I have to say when Donad Trump says there are parts of London that are no-go areas, I think he is betraying a quite stupifying ignorance that frankly makes him unfit to hold the office of the President of the United States.
I would invite him to come and see the whole of London and take him round the city, except that I wouldn't want to expose Londoners to any unnecessary risk of meeting Donald Trump... if he were to come to this city, we'd make every effort to show him the city and show him that he is talking complete nonsense." Boris Johnson

It certainly raises my opinion of Boris.

{{ Halfy- no all it shows is he is a career politician with his only eye ever having been on becoming PM- not what he would do with being PM, just getting there. Thats the game he Cameron, Gove, Hunt and a few others have been playing among themselves since their Eton days when the race to be first PM began. Its a big posh kids lark, a game only toffs get to play from a young age of 'who will run the country?'.
And its still same, if you go look at Oxford and Cambridge, and see whose top on in what, whose doing the Debating Society, the political stuff, the Footlights theatre stuff, your looking at the next generation who will be running the banks, the multi-nationals, the civil service, the judiciary, the entertainment industry and the government of the future. Its all, and always has been n upper class stitch up. The Lords and Ladies, the nobles and royals never gave up anything with democracy, they just made sure it worked primarily for them and their descendants.

And Boris will say (or do any ridiculous publicity stunt) anything that he thinks at the time will make him popular, or will be useful to him in gaining his goals. So far its worked, it would have worked spectacularly if it were not that the real Boris has occasionally reared up in public and gets in the way.
Right now he is calculating that the downsides of saying nice things about Trump will outweigh the upside of manipulating Trump into a good post-Brexit trade deal.

An interesting angle to come out of all this Ambassador stuff is Trump, and how he is being used in our politics.
There was a time, well every time before Trump, when a potential Tory PM candidate praising a US President would have been seen as normal and part of the good things they'd be expected to say.

No longer. Boris's opponents have quickly mobilised to cast this as Boris failing to stand up to Trump, that Boris will roll over to Trump if PM, and implying very strongly that having anything to do with Trump is a bad thing.

Similarly in Scotland one of the few Tory MP's here and a close ally of Boris called for the Ambassador to go before he had even offered to resign, getting him ire form the Head of the Civil Service Union, and Sturgeon, who used it as a chance to again highlight Boris's weakness to Trump and inability to stand up to him.

There are two sides to this, politically Trump is a bad thing, and because he is so disliked in general in the UK any politician who openly says Trump is a bad thing is onto a winner.

That's certainly one thing Trump has done in the UK. He has turned the Office of the President of our closest ally into a bad thing to be avoided, or you will face political consequences and fall out. }}

Johnson is a cowardly toad. This humiliation is going to take decades to forget. He just betrayed our diplomatic service. unbelievable.

Boris will say (or do any ridiculous publicity stunt) anything that he thinks at the time will make him popular, or will be useful to him in gaining his goals. So far its worked....

This is the thing I wonder most about. In these times when virtually every word a person has ever written or said is available and searchable online, and when countless fact-checkers are combing through all the data for "gotcha" quotes, how free is a politician to play this old game of changing positions for convenience? You would think it would be much harder, and yet... well, look who's been bubbling up to the top of the cesspool.

The problem is that nobody trusts the "facts" anymore - the flip side of anything being available is that anything can be made up as well, or nearly anything.

but Petty, if Trump is so unpopular, wouldn't the political calculus say that candidates should attack him now, then flip once in office to get a good trade deal?

{{I reckon Boris thinks Trump will be watching the media when it comes to the next UK PM, he has already publicly praised Boris on more than occasion and said he thought he would make and excellent PM. Boris is laying the groundwork- remember Boris' audience for this vote is not the public, it snot even Tory voters, its only Tory party members, the people most likely to like Trump. And its their votes Boris needs.
Its also why Hunt, being behind was willing to gamble on putting the widely hugely unpopular prospect of resuming fox hunting back on the table- the public hate it, for rich, hunt riding, conservative party members its music to their ears.
Boris will simply pivot for the wider audience if he feels he has to. Right now he doesn't think it will damage him enough with those who matter to stop him being PM. }}

Ah, that's right. The PM is chosen by the ruling party MPs, not by direct popular vote.

{{ None of your new-fangled democracy going on here! Its mainly just a bunch of rich Tories in the south of England deciding who gets to rule. Like the good old days, which is how Tories like it. }}

So, what are the chances Nigel 'Toadface' Farage ends up as our next ambassador to the US...

{{ I dont think it will happen, but you can never 100% rule it out f Boris becomes PM- he may calculate keeping Nigel close is better than having him running an opposition party to the Tories }}

I think they will at least float the idea, might as well, nothing would surprise me these days.

So it was a brexit b**** journalist Isobel Oakeschott and her boyfriend who printed the leaks, she is in the brexit party and wants Tice to be the next diplomat in the US. This is a brexit putsch.

{{ To add to the stink Figg the leaks printed today by the same dodgy duo, showing the Ambassador believed Trump pulled out the Iran deal solely to spite Obama, and that there was no plan whatsoever what to do in its place, or to even try to talk to allies about it, were sent to the Foreign Secretary, at the time one Boris Johnson! }}

Dangerous times, frightening times. Power greedy Etonians & the like crashing through the lives of all & sundry to grab & hold on to whatever will give them status & more power. The down trodden even more stamped on & the paranoia of distrust growing deeper till no one knows who's who anymore. This has the potential to be a great place to live in, we have growth of industry, imagination from all angles. How often are we told we are top in Fashion, music, the Arts, NHS, ( which is without doubt dying & on its knees ) invention, creativity, a list as long as your arm. I don't think Ive felt so helpless as I do now. We are pushed to the side, kept well out as the real "owners" of Britain fight like cat and dog. You don't think that for one single second they think about the ordinary people ? we are sewer rats to them, far too many of us yet handy if we are coerced to hand over a vote like some dumb sheep to elevate them higher. The more they get the further we are left behind until the mentality of " they'll do as we say" attitude kicks in. Because who else is there to turn to ? There are no hero's, no Robin Hood, no second coming. As for democracy in this country ? I see it as the flood gates to bribery, fiddles, fixing votes etc. Corruption never had it so good since democracy was declared our National saviour.

{{{ Yup its the same old same as it has been for generations.

Andrew Neil did an excellent set of interviews of Hunt and Boris.
When I watch US politicians and leaders being interviewed I wish it was more like this, they always seems too polite and respectful they never just tear in and pin down a politician.

Anyhow its an hour long, half an hour each one. But Boris's is of course the better and more entertaining. It starts at 30 mins and I recommend giving it a go, he is clear front runner to  be our next PM afterall. }}

Gotta love Andrew Neil. Boris does have problems giving straight answers to questions.

But American reporters do attack. Chuck Todd especially, but also Chris Wallace will nail administration officials on Fox News. They are more polite than Andrew Neil admittedly.

I just hope that Tice and Oakshott are investigated, prosecuted and charged. Its bordering on traitorous. I also hope it puts paid to Tice and Farage even thinking about a diplomatic position.

{{{ Theres a live hustings (where Boris and Hunt make their case directly to party members who do the voting. As of posting the preamble is still ongoing. Being streamed on youtube- }}

{{ My view of how British Society works.

Poor - dont matter - only ever becomes a problem if it ever approaches a majority of the available work force. Otherwise acceptable losses. Dis-regardable.

Working class- the feeders- they feed the entire system and keep it in place and never know it. They do the work but get the least share of the end products profits. This is deliberate, ideally wage levels should also hover around the minimum standard of living, ensuring the working class never have the funds to save large amounts or invest serious amounts. Advancement to higher university should be limited by either cos tor available places, access to Cambridge and Oxford available only to a token few. This ensures only a small amount of them will ever become middle class and that they will be the brightest of the working class. Working class wages should be close to the threshold leaving only enough to spend on food and cheap consumer goods promoted by the system through advertising.

The middle class- the organisers of the system. The middle class are enlisted with hopes of advancement to the upper middle classes and much higher wages than the working class comparative to the work being done. They perform the functions of the upper classes, they act as their lawyers, their doctors, all the people who tailor themselves towards the service of the upper classes. These are the favoured members of the middle classes and consequentially make up the upper middle class.
A large chunk of the political classes on the back bencher's of both main political parties are also drawn from the middle classes. This serves the important function of quelling any middle-class rebellion. All historic threats internally in the UK to the government have always originated in the middle classes. By ensuring suitable paths to favouritism and moving up the ladder this is nullified to a large degree.

The Upper Classes- this is the ruling class. They are exclusively privately educated, will go to either Cambridge or Oxford. They are born assuming they will at some point lead the nation in one fashion or the other, politically, legally, or whatever direction their talents may lie. They will form the judiciary and legal system, the top echelons of the civil service and political parties, the financial sector and Chancellorship, and the entertainment and news industries. Of course time to time members of classes lower than this rise to these positions, even to PM such as Thatcher who was from the middle classes, but as these are exceptions to the rule they are also no persistent threat, the rules of governance, created by the upper classes ensure that any one individual, or even group within any of the branches of government or society will never be more that temporary. The power of the system of the ruling class is in how it becomes self perpetuating.

The Ruling Class- At the top are the Royals, The Upper end of this class are pure blood Royal. As such they set tone, demeanour, standards and protocols for the upper classes and indicate the direction of travel. Below them are the actual rulers, the top judges and lawmakers, the very top of the civil service, the police, the directors of the tv networks etc. This ensures control of the necessary levers, though once the system is set in motion these need rarely be applied. The ruling class is literally where the buck stops, the majority of the wealth generated by the working and lower middle classes, efficiently managed and funnelled upwards by the actions of the middle classes ends up here in the upper classes, and then is locked up in land, property, overseas territories and investments in international banking and shares.

As I mentioned once started the system is self fulfilling. The ruling class ensure their offspring will be the next ruling class because only the ruling class can afford and have the status to ensure their children are in the right places to end up at the right places in the future. The working class who fund it never get an equivalent education, they are being trained to carry out whatever tasks the government believes the next generation of workers will require to carry out their jobs. They need be educated merely to a level to do so, no higher.
Once working the crushing repetition of most jobs, or the stress involved, and encouraged, by wages which will also leave working people struggling to manage month to month, combined with responding to the biological necessity of raising a family under such conditions, mean they have little to no time or money to do much more than respond to the working conditions through brief periods of snatched entertainment, be it tv, films, drugs, drink, or whatever the indulgence to gain relief.
In the same way the poor are an acceptable loss so long as it doesn't eat into the available work force, so too the side effects of the working class lifestyle which produces mental health issues, violence, alcoholism and other issues are considered fine and acceptable too so long as they likewise dont eat to much into the working class, or cause them to become to fearful.

The middle class are kept in place through encouraging a fear of the working class and the poor as a danger or threat to them. As they need to be higher educated than the working class the inherent risk in this is negated by the aforementioned bribes of promotion up the ladder, high wages, and entry into the political and civil service ranks. Fear however is the main factor for controlling the middle class, fear of losing their house, fear of losing investments, fear of the poor and working class, fear of the immigrant, and its most often appeased by political promises of more police, tougher laws, harsher punishments, more capitalism, which either never materialise or even if they do prove ineffective. This is deliberate as it maintains the necessary level of fear of losing what they have which is the middle class characteristic.

The upper class have self interest as their main motivation. The desire for power is enough to keep that class working all on its own, as they know the entire system relies on them not getting found out they are complicit in it willingly for their own ends. They also benefit directly, they get access to the best schools, they get high wages, secured jobs in industry or financing, and security for their offspring, or some such sweetener as suitable.

And so the Ruling Class is protected from the system ever revolting against it at every level, and they will carry on as they have for generations sending their children to the right schools, the right universities, knowing all the right people in high places (because its the same people, or at least families for hundreds of years), and gradually one generation of the upper classes replaces the last in ruling the country and ensuring its wealth always flows upwards to them and their descendants in perpetuity. }}

Same here except the ruling class almost don't exist except for a few ultra rich and ruling families. More mobility between classes but same rules largely in place.

{{ The really clever thing about it of course, is even when you can see how its all working, its still almost impossible to see how you stop it }}

The low wages trap is particularly insidious.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{They are born assuming they will at some point lead the nation in one fashion or the other, politically, legally, or whatever direction their talents may lie.  }}

I agree but I think there's another wrinkle. Yes I'm sure it's true the ruling class is born with an assumption of entitlement that they'll someday lead the nation, but I believe they're also instilled with a sense of obligation to someday lead the nation. And here's the tricky part: how many people do you think would actually want the lower- and mid-level government jobs if they didn't see them as a necessary rung up the ladder to the job they've been brainwashed to want from birth? Our military runs on the same engine but draws from a different pool of family traditions. If grandpa rose to the rank of general, there'll often be half a dozen grandchildren enlisting to see if they can follow in his footsteps. It's what keeps the machines like this running, for good or evil.

{{ A very good point Dave. Particularity true n the UK. I mentioned that the Royals set the tone, mood and direction for the ruling class, and a huge part of this in our country is the Queen and based on duty and performing the necessary public functions of State. Royalty leads by example and the upper classes follow. There is certainly i would agree a sense of service, of performing ones duty to the nation in serving in whatever capacity one is capable.
I dont know who came up with the system but its so clever its even got built in means of controlling the ruling class!


Halfy- yes its particularly nasty, and I may think that not least from being in it most of my life. 12 hour shifts, up to 8 days in row, couple of back for another 4 repeat etc and somehow still struggling to make ends meet. Fortunately my needs are small, give me my buckie and access to my pc and pen and paper and books and I'm ok, largely because being a crabbit bastard I expect the world to be this shitty.
Where I get angry is knowing how bad they've made it, I watch my Better Half still doing those sort of shift patterns, and struggling to get by and support and raise her daughter, and I think that when I was a kid my dad was the sole bread winner in an average working mans job, and he could afford to run a house of four. Not in luxury, but with a holiday a year in Blackpool or some such, the amenities of the time, plenty food and heating, and set working hours with weekends off to spend on other pursuits or with family. These days it takes two working full time to be in a close to comparative situation, if they even still are given that prices have risen higher than wages for almost a decade. }}