All New Who

The statement wasn't that they don't understand women well enough to write one, but that they aren't smart enough to deal with all the barriers a woman would face through history.

{{I dont think Amy can be accused of being stereotypical in any way. She is one of the most complex companions in Who imo }}

but that they aren't smart enough to deal with all the barriers a woman would face through history.- Halfy

{{Fair enough if thats what Amarie meant and Ive misunderstood}}

If one does break down the Amy seasons to the very basic, it's really not that complex.

Amy is a girl with a difficult childhood, hostile as a defence mechanism, using her good looks to make a living thinking it's her only asset. She falls into a unhealthy relationship with a charismatic man. He comes back for her time and time again and won't let her be. She eventually breaks free by joining the Who verse equivalent of a witness protection program.

Getting back to the other lethal subject of a female Doctor. My comment was a bit brief since I was typing on my phone.

Writing is hard. You need a believable character in a believable setting no matter who, where or when. Maybe Chibnall can do that. I hope so, I really do.

The Robin Hood thing didn't seem like time travel, more like a visit into another movie. They made a big deal of the word Viking without even bothering to check what it actually means. Stuff like 'Legends of tomorrow' is basically rubbish, but it's consistent rubbish. It's professional rubbish. With Who you know they can make great stuff, so when they make rubbish you know they are doing it on purpose, and have to assume that's what they think you as a viewer is worth.

Edit: Bladi-bla aside, what it all boils down to for me (and everybody else I guess) is: Will we like the new Doctor and Chibnalls's Who!?! WE DON'T KNOW!! *cue angst*

Amy is a girl with a difficult childhood, hostile as a defence mechanism, using her good looks to make a living thinking it's her only asset. She falls into a unhealthy relationship with a charismatic man. He comes back for her time and time again and won't let her be. She eventually breaks free by joining the Who verse equivalent of a witness protection program. - Amarie

{{Well thats about reductionist as you can get! By that standard Rose is just tart from a council estate that cheats on her boyfriend with a stranger she immediately abandons her only family for in order to become the worst most bitchy self centered bunny boiler in space and time.}}


The Robin Hood thing didn't seem like time travel, more like a visit into another movie- Amarie

{{Well given Robin Hood is considered a fictional character thats maybe not a surprise. But traditionally Who has two stlyes of historical- the actual historical and the broader more fun parody of historical- see for example the two 1st Doctor stories the Time Meddler (straight history- where the facts are wrong its because they were wrong at the time of production) or The Gunslingers (broad history which owes far more to tv and film Westerns than it does any actual history) The Robin Hoof episode is very much in the later camp. }}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Amy is a girl with a difficult childhood, hostile as a defence mechanism, using her good looks to make a living thinking it's her only asset. She falls into a unhealthy relationship with a charismatic man. He comes back for her time and time again and won't let her be. She eventually breaks free by joining the Who verse equivalent of a witness protection program. - Amarie

{{Well thats about reductionist as you can get! By that standard Rose is just tart from a council estate that cheats on her boyfriend with a stranger she immediately abandons her only family for in order to become the worst most bitchy self centered bunny boiler in space and time.}}

Rose's character is a typical everyday girl with a typical hero arc.
She's bored with her life. She's told that leaving will have no consequences and no one will know, but that promise isn't kept.
Overall arc: leaves home seeking adventure, finds adventure, grows as a person, saves the day, returns home a changed person.
Martha is the same, basically.
Donna is the same with a twist end, where it's her parents and the Doctor who has changed and she remains the same.

Rose's character is a typical everyday girl with a typical hero arc.- Amarie

{{My point was that your rather unpleasant simplistic summing up of Amy is no better than the overly simplistic one I put up about Rose.
For example whilst Amy's relationship to the Doctor is unhealthy its the fault of noone in that his abandonment of her comes from an accident and the Doctor's lack of knowledge that a crack in space and time is also destroying her personal life bit by bit. Its also a reoccurring theme- the Doctors actions and the consequences of them- whether thats Rory directly calling the Doctor out for his reckless methods in the Girl Who Waited or the Bishop in the Amy who scolds the Doctor after the death of two of his men and the Doctors offered sympathies and tributes to their bravery- "yes, and when you've flown off in your little blue box, I will tell their families that."
So it snot only a complicated part of Amy's personality it also serves a wider narrative theme in reflecting on the Doctor and showing us aspects of him via Amy and Rory that we would never otherwise see.
And that is after all the job of companion, to bring out aspects of the Doctor we havent seen yet, or to see parts we have in greater depth. One of the reasons I think she is one of the most complex is that her story is also reflected in the wider themes of her time on the show.}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
{{Well thats about reductionist as you can get! By that standard Rose is just tart from a council estate that cheats on her boyfriend with a stranger she immediately abandons her only family for in order to become the worst most bitchy self centered bunny boiler in space and time.}}
}}}

and I suppose calling Rose a tart is not reductionist? its funny Rose has more charm, charisma and courage in her little finger than Amy has in her whole prick-teasing body.

I suppose calling Rose a tart is not reductionist?- Figg

{{{ You missed my point entirely- that was written to be as deliberately reductionist as Amarie's one of Amy to point out that even though I dislike Rose even I think that describing her in just that way would be reductionist and not do her character justice- just as I think that it was when Amarie did it about Amy. }}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Rose's character is a typical everyday girl with a typical hero arc.- Amarie

{{My point was that your rather unpleasant simplistic summing up of Amy is no better than the overly simplistic one I put up about Rose.}}

What was unpleasant about it?  

Amarie wrote:Amy is a girl with a difficult childhood, hostile as a defence mechanism, using her good looks to make a living thinking it's her only asset. She falls into a unhealthy relationship with a charismatic man. He comes back for her time and time again and won't let her be. She eventually breaks free by joining the Who verse equivalent of a witness protection program. - Amarie

Is it the "unhealthy relationship"  bit? I thought the idea was that the relationship was ultimately bad for Amy because her and the Doctor would never work out and spending time with him is obscuring the obvious fact that a really good guy called Rory is trying to win her affection or something.

'She eventually breaks free by joining the Who verse equivalent of a witness protection program.'

{{Forest  - it rather implies she is under threat of abuse from the Doctor and requires to escape him and to be protected from him- which could not be further from what actually happens which is she makes a clear choice about the sort of lifestyle she wants and who she wants to spend that with and then acts upon it. And the Doctor spends the entire time with her trying to help her to find her self and her own way without reliance on him.
But as the women here for some reason like to portray Amy as some sort of weak battered woman only there to sexually titillate the males for some unfathomable reaosn with no basis in the show it was therefore a needlessly unpleasant (and untrue) way to put it.}}}

halfwise wrote:The statement wasn't that they don't understand women well enough to write one, but that they aren't smart enough to deal with all the barriers a woman would face through history.

Uhuh

Pettytyrant101 wrote:'She eventually breaks free by joining the Who verse equivalent of a witness protection program.'

{{Forest  - it rather implies she is under threat of abuse from the Doctor and requires to escape him and to be protected from him- which could not be further from what actually happens which is she makes a clear choice about the sort of lifestyle she wants and who she wants to spend that with and then acts upon it. And the Doctor spends the entire time with her trying to help her to find her self and her own way without reliance on him.
But as the women here for some reason like to portray Amy as some sort of weak battered woman only there to sexually titillate the males for some unfathomable reaosn with no basis in the show it was therefore a needlessly unpleasant (and untrue) way to put it.}}}

Oh goodness, those women, am I right?
 

Thanks for explaining. My head-cold was hampering my ability to understand.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:'She eventually breaks free by joining the Who verse equivalent of a witness protection program.'

{{Forest  - it rather implies she is under threat of abuse from the Doctor and requires to escape him and to be protected from him- which could not be further from what actually happens which is she makes a clear choice about the sort of lifestyle she wants and who she wants to spend that with and then acts upon it. And the Doctor spends the entire time with her trying to help her to find her self and her own way without reliance on him.
But as the women here for some reason like to portray Amy as some sort of weak battered woman only there to sexually titillate the males for some unfathomable reaosn with no basis in the show it was therefore a needlessly unpleasant (and untrue) way to put it.}}}

objectively she was abused by him. he does nothing but damage her in terrible ways. if she had never met him she would have been a normal woman. No desertion hang-ups, no psychological damage, just a normal life with Rory. If she had never met the Doctor she would have never been tortured, physically and emotionally. The Doctor is poison to Amy. Maybe 'the women here' see things from a female perspective, and not from Moffats fevered fantasies. He hired her because she was 'hot' nothing wrong with that per se, but unfortunately Amys character does reinforce sexual stereotypes, her fertility is made her main story arc. the writing for Amy lets her down badly.

I thought the idea was that the relationship was ultimately bad for Amy because her and the Doctor would never work out and spending time with him is obscuring the obvious fact that a really good guy called Rory is trying to win her affection or something.- Forest

{{No, the idea Amy is anyway torn between Rory and the Doctor is a complete fabrication and myth. The issues is resolved in the episode Amy's Choice- which was the 7th episode- but Rory was only fully introduced in episode 6. So the entire Amy not sure what she wants in terms of who she wants lasts one and a bit episodes.

At which point it is completely resolved for her in her head.

DOCTOR: Be very sure. This could be the real world.
AMY: It can't be. Rory isn't here. I didn't know. I didn't, I didn't, I honestly didn't, till right now. I just want him.
DOCTOR: Okay. Okay.
AMY: I love Rory, and I never told him. But now he's gone.


RORY: Okay. But how did you know it was a dream? Before you crashed the van, how did you know you wouldn't just die?
AMY: I didn't.
RORY: Oh.
AMY: Yeah.
RORY: Oh.
AMY: Yeah, oh.
(Rory kisses Amy, then she kisses him back.)
DOCTOR: So, well then, where now? Or should I just pop down to the swimming pool for a few lengths?
RORY: I don't know. Anywhere's good for me. I'm happy anywhere.


The matter never comes up again- Amy is with Rory at the end of the series they get married.

Amy's problems in her relationship with the Doctor have nothing to do with feelings of love or sex from this point on-wards to their end in the show.
Her problems stem form the fact she had a tear in space and time literally eating up aspects of her life and even her family constantly shifting reality around, and she met the Doctor as a child, who then tol dher fabulous tales promised to take her on a trip in his time machine and was never seen again.

DOCTOR:
What happened?

AMELIA:
12 years.

DOCTOR:
You hit me with a cricket bat.

AMELIA:
12 years.

DOCTOR:
A cricket bat.

AMELIA:
12 years and four psychiatrists.

DOCTOR:
Four?

AMELIA:
I kept biting them.

DOCTOR:
Why?

AMELIA:
They said you weren't real.

Amy grows up not only being told someone she knows for a fact is real is not only not real, but impossible. But on top of that she has no stability or consistency in her life because the crack in time keeps screwing with her life and head.
When the Doctor returns she is just trying to put all this behind her, embarking on a steady relationship with Rory, trying to find a job and make it stick- and his reappearance throws everything back into complete choas.
And in terms of how she views the Doctors she cant help but still see him through the eyes of her childhood self, who after he abandoned her made up tales, stories and all sorts of stuff centered around her 'imaginary friend'.
Whilst Rory sees the Doctor much clearer from the off noting this about the Doctor in his first full adventure on the TARDIS;

RORY: You know what's dangerous about you? It's not that you make people take risks, it's that you make them want to impress you. You make it so they don't want to let you down. You have no idea how dangerous you make people to themselves when you're around.

Amy is almost hypnotized by him as her imaginary friend, come to whisk her off on adventures and daring do.
And suddenly the whole normal and life and marriage with Rory she has been trying to build starts to come crumbling down until she finds herself confronted with Rory's apparent loss. And the realization of who really matters to her on those terms.
But her problems of still seeing the Doctor as a hero, not seeing the dangers he also represents persist until the very end.

AMY: Doctor, it's happening. It's changing me. It's changing my thoughts.
DOCTOR: I can't save you from this. There's nothing I can do to stop this.
AMY: What?
DOCTOR: I stole your childhood and now I've led you by the hand to your death. But the worst thing is, I knew. I knew this would happen. This is what always happens.
(The Minotaur bursts in.)
DOCTOR: Forget your faith in me. I took you with me because I was vain. Because I wanted to be adored. Look at you. Glorious Pond, the girl who waited for me. I'm not a hero. I really am just a mad man in a box. And it's time we saw each other as we really are.


And all thats frankly just scraping the surface with Amy, not to mention how the themes underpinning her character also play into the wider themes of the series she is in. }}}

if she had never met him she would have been a normal woman.- Figg


{{No if she had never met him either the Crack in time and space would have consumed her and everyone she knew and eventually everything else. Or Prisoner Zero would have killed her. Neither of which the Doctor had any knowledge of at all when he met her. The Doctors mistake was in his immediate post regen state of usual confusing he thought he could accurately fly the TARDIS, when in fact he often cant do that when he is normal, with the result he arrived many years late- that was it- that was all he did wrong. And everything he does from that time on is to restore Amy to neither idolising him, nor depending on him, or believing in him as some sort of personal hero and saviour and to let her have the normal life you speak of.
He first gets things back on track with Rory, then h leads to her point where she no longer as the same simple faith in him, then he buys her and Rory a house and sets them up with a normal life to get used to again. And eventually with the events in Manhattan she chooses to finally give up her imaginary friend altogether in order to live out that normal healthy life with the man she loves and is married too, Rory.
The person most hurt by this decision- despite it being what he has been working towards was of course the Doctor, who as usual sacrifices himself in pain to prevent others from doing so.

Or as the 12th Doctor put it-

'And do you know what you do with all that pain? Shall I tell you where you put it? You hold it tight till it burns your hand, and you say this. No one else will ever have to live like this. No one else will have to feel this pain. Not on my watch! }}}

{{Excellent trailer for a classic bit of recently rediscovered classic Who- 2nd Doctor The Enemy of the World}}

Amy and Rory has to leave everybody they know,  they must get a new identity, never speak of their past,  they start a new life- possibly adopting a kid - and the relationship you agreed was unhealthy can't be resumed. Things I associate with witness protection.

Amy and Rory has to leave everybody they know- Amarie

{{Not true. Rory has no choice he gets Angeled, but Amy makes a completely conscious choice. She assertains the situation, she gets information on what will happen from someone she absolutely trusts and knows wont lie to her- her daughter. She makes her peace, says her goodbyes and chooses to follow Rory. She is not forced to leave, she is forced to make a choice however by circumstances- but then thats how life actually works. But she does not have to leave. There are clearly two choices available.
Plus River can still visit them as she is already part of events and so is part of the anomaly already- in fact she has to see them in order not to further the paradox. So they still see their daughter.}}

they must get a new identity, never speak of their past,  they start a new life- Amarie

The only accurate part of that is the last bit, and even then I'm not sure.
There is nowhere says they have to get a new identity, nor do they hide who they are or their past from their  adopted child who knows all about it. Not only do they tell him of their past Amy combines elements of it into her childrens books she goes onto write.
And they start a new life in that it doesn't contain the Doctor any more and its in a different point in time- but they already had that life, domestic, at home in the present day.

'and the relationship you agreed was unhealthy can't be resumed'

{The operative word there being 'was' by the time of their departure their relationship is in fact pretty healthy with Amy and Rory having their own home life and occasional adventures with the Doctor. Thats what makes their departure so tragic- just at the point when they have sorted the issues, Amy and Rory are happy, Amy and th Doctor have a healthy interaction now, River is with them and they are altogether as family unit in the TARDIS then comes the tragedy.
Their relationship could have continued- indeed the Doctor tries hard to convince Amy to do just that and come back to the TARDIS. But Amy, at Rivers confirmation, knows there is no way to get to Rory save this way so she chooses to take it.}}

Things I associate with witness protection.- Amarie

{{You may well do, but almost none of it actually happens in the episodes}}

I'm still gradually working my way through the BBC Eighth Doctor novels (just started number 50(?) 'The Adventuress Of Henrietta Street)  there's been some crushing lows (looking at you Legacy Of The Daleks) mediocre genericness (The Face Eater, Placebo Effect, The Slow Empire) and some soaring heights (Father Time, Seeing I, Alien Bodies, The Scarlet Empress, The Year Of Intelligent Tigers...) in general I'd say the range is more good the bad, and when it is good its really really good  you can certainly see the influence the novels had on both New Who and the way Big Finish later expanded on the 8th Doctor in the audios, and Fitz Kriener (27 year old chavunistic, chain smoking, lazy cowardly day dreamer from 1960's London) has become possibly my favourite companion, it's been refreshing to read a companion who is a just a regular bloke somewhat befuddled and terrfied by the situation but hangs around with the Doctor purely because they are great friends, honestly this has already become one of my favourite  eras of Who, surprisingly inventive (and at points, frankly batshit crazy, Mad Dogs And Englishmen is even weirder than its cover suggests, though it was great...and included many not so subtle references to Tolkien and The Inklings...) and enjoyable for BBC tie in fiction.

It's been really interesting exploring the 'wilderness years' of Doctor Who and reading through a range that had only a hours screentime to base The Doctor on, it veers closer to space fantasy than hard sci fi and largely avoids the tropes and history of Classic Who (it was amusing to find out the books did a massive time war looming in the Doctors future and

Spoiler:

years before the TV series did...) but it's still recognizably the same eccentric franchise at its heart.

The TV Tropes page is really interesting:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/EighthDoctorAdventures

{{Ah some of those take me back Malick! That was all the Who we had for so long! }}}

Interesting news from Big Finish:

https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/doctor-who---the-doctor-chronicles

Later this year and beyond, we chronicle some times and places for the Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors...

Unveiled today are three forthcoming four-story sets: Doctor Who - The Ninth Doctor Chronicles, Doctor Who - The Tenth Doctor Chronicles and Doctor Who - The Eleventh Doctor Chronicles, featuring all new stories with narration from Big Finish Executive Producer and Doctor Who actor Nicholas Briggs.

Ninth Doctor Chronicles co-producer Scott Handcock comments: "It’s been a treat to work with such a incredible team on bringing the Ninth Doctor back to life! David Richardson and Matt Fitton have assembled a fantastic team of writers, opening with a brilliant new story from Cavan Scott, whose acclaimed work on the Ninth Doctor comics made him an obvious choice."

"And as anyone who’s heard the Destiny of the Doctor range will already know, Nicholas Briggs makes for the ideal reader, ably assisted by some strong supporting voices, with Camille Coduri and Bruno Langley reprising their roles as Jackie Tyler and Adam Mitchell. Throw in Helen Goldwyn’s precise direction, and we have four stories that feel as massive as anything seen on screen! With more to come…"

Nicholas Briggs adds, "The fun of doing these releases for me is that it’s a big performance challenge, and a chance to build on what I’ve learnt from doing some of the Doctor Who audiobook readings for AudioGo and BBC Audio. In those, I’ve been lucky enough to do the voices of the Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Doctors, with, flatteringly, some success and recognition. So while we’re waiting to one day hopefully make full-cast adventures with these Doctors, we thought a good way for us to explore these more recent eras of the programme would be to have me performing them as enhanced readings, with guest voices too."

"So far, we’ve recorded the Ninth Doctor stories, and it’s been a real blast, particularly working with Camille and Bruno. I’ll be polishing up my Tenth and Eleventh Doctor voices for the upcoming releases. I’m not a mimic or an impersonator, although I’ve always had fun capturing the essential spirit of people’s voices, so that’s what I’m doing here. There’s no way you’ll mistake my performances for the actual Doctors in question, but my hope is that you’ll be in no doubt which Doctor is speaking. I also hope that my genuine affection for these great actors and Doctors shines through."

Doctor Who - The Ninth Doctor Chronicles is released in May, and casting and story details can be found on the webpage. There will be much more information across all three volumes in coming months, including release dates for the Tenth and Eleventh Doctor versions, which will be out in 2018. Each volume can be bought separately for £20 on Download or £23 for a CD version which unlocks download files in your Big Finish account.

Pre-order Bundles are available, collecting Doctor Who - The Ninth Doctor, The Tenth Doctor and The Eleventh Doctor Chronicles together for £55 on Download or £66 on CD, going up to £80 and £100 respectively when all three are released.

...I'm glad the New Who Doctors are getting some new audio stories (especially the 9th Doctor who has been very neglected in the expanded media) but the absence of the actual Doctors (and more likely than not the companions as well) has largely killed my interest.

Having a different actor narrating the role worked fine in the Destiny of the Doctor series and the Companion Chronicles audiobooks, but the CC's were from the companions point of view and the majority of which featured the long deceased 1st and 2nd Doctors from the 60's.

I'm not really nostalgic (or fond) enough about the 10th or 11th Doctor's yet to get that excited about new stories anyway, but the limited cast and format (not to mention the price!) of these releases might end up putting off more people it brings in, the New Who license has a been a huge benefit to Big Finish in the last two years but they could blow it with this release...New Who fans tend to be younger, and if they can pay £10 for a whole series on DVD, why would they feel inclined to pay double that for four audio dramas with few of the main cast involved?

Nick Briggs does a pretty decent Eccleston impression (haven't heard his Tennant or Smith) but I think I'd actually find it easier to except the absence of the Doctors if the companions were narrating the tale, rather than a straight recast narrating the stories, the Short Trips range they do is pretty good £2.99 for a 20-50 minute narrated short story and there's lots of scope for the New Doctors there...this hybrid format on the other hand, with a few minor characters involved and limited to boxsets dosen't scream exciting to me...it kinda feels like they are releasing new stories just to plug a gap because they paid for the license, and Briggs already has a hand in nearly every release...I think I'd rather they bided their time and waited/persuaded for the actual doctors and companions to return....

I'll probably check out a few reviews and maybe wait for a sale on the 9th Dr set but I'm going to pass on these I think...

{{{MMM yeah it doesnt seem financially sound. BF seems just overkeen to do something, anything with the newer Doctors, and as they dont have them yet they are just pushing ahead anyway. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{MMM yeah it doesnt seem financially sound. BF seems just overkeen to do something, anything with the newer Doctors, and as they dont have them yet they are just pushing ahead anyway. }}

I think it's quite telling that they are doing one of these volumes with the 10 Doctor...the 2015 set Tennant did with Tate still hasn't sold out, perhaps Tennant is too busy or it wasn't as sucessful as Big Finish hoped.

It's a loose loose situation for them, Classic Fans who already listen to BF will probably have the money to buy these audios but might not be interested in New Who stories...but new listeners might be put off by the cost (BF have to keep their prices reasonably high to pay for the license and combat piracy) format, or abscence of the actual Doctors.

I only really follow a couple of ranges at BF as it is, and those are mostly bought on sale, rushing out New Who stories just to capitalize on its popularity could end causing them more harm than good.

I'm happy to wait for full cast stories with 9,10 and 11.