UK paedophilia scandal

but there is one big difference, I can understand your argument fully as regards crimes like drinking and driving, many years ago there just wasnt the education or the appreciation that its basically homicide to drink and drive, nowadays its a serious crime but in the 70s it wasnt for whatever reason, and I suppose thats fair enough, if people werent re-educated, BUT crimes like child abuse transcend all this, it was bad then and its bad now, there is no excuse, there are NO mitigating factors, people knew it was wrong then as they do now, this is what I dont understand about your argument.

Its because its a principle of law Mrs Figg- you cant pick and choose how to apply a principle fairly- so it applies to all law.
As David said, 'Justice is blind' it has to be to uphold fairness.

"it was bad then and its bad now"- Mrs Figg

Morally you are absolutely right- but if you go soley on the differences in the law between now and then you could say that then it was not viewed as seriously as it is now in law, and that was reflected in the maximum sentence then being 2 years, when now it is 10.
So going purely on the law- it was not as serious a crime then as it is now in terms of how a person was punished for it. (Which all goes back to what I was saying earlier about attitudes of the time).

Your example of drunk driving is an excellent one, Mrs Figg.

Our laws were made much stricter in the 80's and 90's because of an intense nationwide lobbying effort by and organization called MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving).

Many were mothers who had lost children to drunk driving. Their stories were horrific! Little kids run down in crosswalks. Highschool kids partying and half a dozen kids burned to death in a flaming wreck. All told with pictures and tears for maximum effect.

I think most parents who needlessly lost a child to a drunk driver would feel very strongly that drunk driving was just as evil then as it is now. But the new laws can't go back in time to punish people, anymore than they can bring back the kids...

Even in an example of child abuse- if someone committed the crime in the seventies, was caught in the seventies and sentenced to serve 2 years for their crime, released having being deemed to have payed their debt to society and never re-offended- should they now then have to go back to jail to serve another 8 years because the law has changed since?
That's why the law exists as it does- you have to be even- so even if the person is caught for the crime now, if it was committed back then they have to be given the same sort of sentence as others at that time were, for that crime. That means judging them according to the same sentencing as others were when the crime occurred.
Otherwise you can imagine what a quagmire the law would become if lawyers could get their hands on redacting or increasing sentences as the law changes to reflect society? The wheels of Justice move slowly and unevenly enough as it is.

''should they now then have to go back to jail to serve another 8 years because the law has changed since?'' Petty

no but these people never stopped abusing, they have been at it without stopping for 30 years, this is different from a one-off case where someone was tried for 2 years, served the sentence, then did not go on to commit the crime again. the crimes of Stuart Hall would have a different sentence for every year he did the crime , the victims would feel the most recent crimes were getting justice but their cases which came earlier did not. same man same crime but different sentences, is that fair?

I hear Michael Le Vell (well known actor from Coronation Street, he has been in the show 30 years) is up in court today on child abuse cases, he has pleaded not guilty, whos next????

Do you mean William Roache (ken Barlow)? He is also up on charges, and is likewise pleading not guilty-

'Mr Roache, 81, from Wilmslow, Cheshire, denied two counts of raping a 15-year-old girl in East Lancashire in 1967.
He also denied five counts of indecent assault involving four girls in Manchester in the mid to late 1960s.'- BBC

edit add- did just a quick google and Michael Le Vell is also facing charges-

'Coronation Street actor Michael Le Vell told his rape victim it was their "little secret" and she would "die" if she told anyone, a court has heard.
Mr Le Vell, 48, who appeared under his real name Michael Turner, is facing 12 charges, including five of rape.
The counts relate to one girl, who cannot be named, who was abused from the age of six, Manchester Crown Court heard.
Mr Le Vell, of Hale in Trafford, has denied all the charges.
He also faces three counts of indecent assault, two counts of causing a child to engage in sexual activity and two of sexual activity with a child.'- BBC

What creeps! These are men who lived for fame, and now, whatever sentence they receive, they deserve all the public humiliation they get.

it not only destroys the victims lives it also effects generations of people who grew up watching these people on tv, they are all well loved characters, it kills a little bit of our childhood innocence as well, albeit on a vastly reduced scale to the actual victims..

Former BBC Radio 1 DJ Dave Lee Travis has appeared at the Old Bailey to face 11 counts of indecent assault and one of sexual assault.
He is accused of carrying out the offences between 1977 and 2007.- BBC News

 

  this is mind boggling, every day theres a new one.

Now they are investigating Sir Cliff Richard.

Thats going to upset my mum.

Ive always been wary of Cliff Richard, he's to squeaky clean. No ones that pure as driven snow   I wouldnt be surprised if something comes out about him.

Ive given up being surprised any more. Just when you think thats it they go arrest yet another.

The more they dig the worse it gets-

'The Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating 14 referrals spanning four decades.
It said the claims were of "high-level corruption of the most serious nature".

Allegations, dating from between 1970 and 2005, being considered by the IPCC include:

A potential cover-up linked to "failures to properly investigate child sex abuse offences in south London and further information about criminal allegations against a politician being dropped"

A claim that an investigation into young men being targeted at the Dolphin Square flats in Pimlico, south-west London, was halted because "officers were too near prominent people"

An allegation that a document from the Houses of Parliament was found at a paedophile's address linking "highly-prominent individuals", including MPs and senior police officers, to a paedophile ring but no further action was taken

Alleged alteration of a child sex abuse victim's account to remove the name of a senior politician

Alleged child sex abuse by a senior politician and a subsequent cover-up of the alleged crimes

Claims that a surveillance operation of a child abuse ring was shut down due to "high-profile people being involved"

An allegation that police officers sexually abused a boy and carried out surveillance on him


The other allegations that form part of the IPCC investigation are:

An allegation that an investigation into a paedophile ring that led to a number of convictions did not take action "in relation to other more prominent individuals"

A claim that a politician spoke to a senior Metropolitan Police officer to demand no action was taken regarding an alleged paedophile ring in Westminster in the 1970s

An allegation that in the late 1970s a surveillance operation that gathered intelligence on a politician being involved in paedophile activities was closed down by a senior Met Police officer

A claim that a dossier of allegations against senior figures and politicians accused of being involved in child abuse was taken by Special Branch officers

Allegations that a senior officer instructed that a sexual abuse investigation should be halted, with the order having come from "up high" in the Met

An alleged conspiracy within the force to prevent a politician suspected of offences from being prosecuted

Child sex abuse allegations against a former senior Met Police officer with other "members of the establishment", including judges, alleged to have been involved. It is claimed no further action was taken'- BBC


What has being going on at the top of our society in this country? Something is rotten in the state of Westminster.

Its like a Stephan King novel, or its the 'Stepford Politicians'.Maybe there was more incest going on than you know & its bred fooking weirdo's. They are all a close gang that lot, Nothing will break their defenses. Theyve sworn a pact not just within themselves but also with the devil

Theyve sworn a pact not just within themselves but also with the devil - Azriel

One has to wonder.

Something as serious as child sex & they are gonna keep it tight. very tight. To much hinges on it if anything leaked out. The atmosphere must have been a sickening nightmare for the children involved & probably nervous tension for the perps. Once caught & convicted the villains whole life should be stripped from them, All lands, property & privileges, goods, wealth & passports, ownerships whether whole or partial, sponsers, commissions, bonuses, savings, bank accounts & pensions should be taken away. Then, named & shamed in the history books for ever, thats on top of any sentencing they get & NO, they do not get off lighter than the average 'joe' ! No back handers, no bribes etc !

I have a strong suspicion that whatever does come out about this it will mysteriously only name already dead people as guilty.

its like one huge scab

Dead men tell no lies, Convenience would be handy !

And so it goes on......and on....

'An undercover police operation that gathered evidence of child abuse by Cyril Smith and other public figures was scrapped shortly after the MP was arrested, BBC Newsnight has been told.
Information has been passed to Newsnight by a former officer, who is familiar with the original investigation and its closure.
The order to scrap the probe, made after Smith and others had been arrested, came from a senior officer whom the undercover team had never met before, according to the source.
Officers were then ordered to hand over all their evidence - including notebooks and video footage - and were warned to keep quiet about the investigation or face prosecution under the Official Secrets Act, it is claimed.
During a three-month inquiry, officers working in shifts gathered a substantial amount of evidence of men abusing boys aged around 14, the BBC has been told.
That evidence included pictures and video taken from inside the flat, as a hidden camera had been installed with the help of a caretaker.
Smith is said to have been one of those caught on camera, another being a senior member of Britain's intelligence agencies.
According to an account given to the BBC, Smith was later seized at a property in Streatham, south London, where he had reportedly been taking part in a sex party with teenage boys.
But it was claimed he was released that night and a duty sergeant who wanted to keep him in custody was reprimanded.
The BBC has been told that as well as Smith and the member of the intelligence agencies, the undercover team also had evidence on two senior police officers.
The squad believed that boys from care homes were being provided "to order" for sex parties, but the inquiry was abruptly shelved, the BBC has been told.'- BBC

hell when they do get caught if they're famous like Pete Townsend from the Who... they just say they were researching a book and get away with it... I hate to say it the only cure for anyone involved in that is a bullet through their cerebral cortex

The problem here is that the scale of it is huge and its seems to have been rife and organised among the countries leading institutions right to the very top.
For the Official Secrets Act to have been used to silence police officers and shut down investigations into it (and remember this isnt just one or two folks grooming some poor kids online, this is kids from care homes being sent to order, highly organised) it must involve names far more serious than Cyril Smith who was just a lib dem MP. And the accusations from victims go as far as not just sexual abuse but murder of children for sexual pleasure.
It appears the reason it was shut down was that if he was going down he was going to name names.
We already know these groups involved senior politicians, senior judges and senior police officers as well as senior members of the intelligence agencies.
Added with the already uncovered institutional abuses and cover ups at the BBC too the whole edifice of political control and national institutions in the UK is in the firing line here.
And fading into and out of all this on the edges of the story is always the Royal Family- Charles was best mates with Saville for example, Prince Andrew has already been accused.
The question is how high up does it have to go before the Official Secrets Act is used to cover it up? (the act can only be used to cover up information if the intelligence services and government of the day believe the public finding out would fundamentally undermine the rule of law in the country or if it would expose allies or give information to enemies- its unlikely it was used for the second two reasons).

And the accusations from victims go as far as not just sexual abuse but murder of children for sexual pleasure.......................Petty
Are you talking Snuff ?
I would not bat an eyelid if the *huh'erm* royals were implicated. Throughout history so called Royals have always been a shady bunch. Whats that phrase when Royalty is not hereditary but elected ?? I forget. I mean, what do we really know about the 'Windsors' ? eh ? Its all taken for granted & we dont question them or delve further, not until one dies that is.They are only human as us, any one of them could be the kinkiest bugger on the planet & how would we know ? its all hushed up !

Sadly yes, snuff- killing children whilst in the act of sexually abusing them.
As to the Royals- well they are one of the few things other than intelligence and military that can and are routinely protected by use of the Official Secrets Act.
And their names do seem to keep cropping up, never directly connected but somehow there...